Defunct Google "Backend" Group

[Storymama]

I'd like to delete the Google Group I created "Yaaps Backend" - can anyone think of a reason not to? I think everything there has either been addressed or is/will be moved here. I'll give it until tomorrow in case anyone can think of a reason not to delete it.

[retro]

There was ANOTHER google group?

cripes...how many groups were out there?

[Storymama]

I can only speak to the two I had involvement with, the main group and the Backend group I splintered off for discussion of technical points in getting YAAPS back up and running. There were multiple threads that talked about it, including the main one where I invited whomever wished to participate to join in:

Backend Group (http://groups.google.com/group/yaaps-back-up/browse_frm/thread/bb2d2a4fa9dc06fc/21da786efed697bd?lnk=gst&q=backend#21da786efed697bd)

[retro]

wow...ok

[ADDled]

There was ANOTHER google group?

cripes...how many groups were out there?


wow...ok

I know it's hard to read tone in print, but this sounded really accusatory to me (passively accusatory). Probably you didn't mean to sound that way. You were invited to join the second google group, you know.

I didn't join it because I don't know about technical things, and frankly because I didn't have time - my life is overwhelming right now. But I knew I was invited to if I wanted to - it was made very clear over and over on both yahoo and google. It was also made clear no decisions being made there - all decisions would be made by the whole community via poll.

[retro]

not accusatory at all. Just surprised that there were so many groups out there. This has always been a community that has had EVERYONE join in and discuss decisions. It was founded on that principle. It just surprised me that there would be more than one group I would think that one would be sufficient for everyone to put in their thoughts on decisions.

I am also surprised at all the assumptions of tone...

It seems that no one can ask a question without people jumping to the assumption that there is tone and attitude. This is huge for everyone involved. I would think that questions would be WELCOMED not pushed aside and looked at as accusations.

Tone is VERY hard to read over the internet...especially in this medium.

[Storymama]

I know I would have preferred having it all under one roof, but the Google layout is just sooooo damned hard to read, I was finding I needed to have it pulled aside in order to be thorough and methodical with the server move and new setup. I hope nobody takes that bit of frustration in dealing with the poor Google layout as a change in direction for the community.

[retro]

but it is a change. That is exactly what I think is unsettling for people. Before even if people didn't understand the "tech talk" at least they weren't excluded from it.

Everything before was always discussed and voted on...with a time to close the vote. That seems to have changed a bit with things being thrown up and admin status being visible, etc. And I am not talking about activating the forum as a whole but with the admin status issues being questioned and being told that will be up for discussion later. The private forum being put up without even a vote. The "read only" forum for the admins. These things are HUGE for a community that has always kept things out in the open and has prided itself in everyone having a voice.

Just from a "non-admin" point of view.

That's all.

[Sarah]

not accusatory at all. Just surprised that there were so many groups out there. This has always been a community that has had EVERYONE join in and discuss decisions. It was founded on that principle. It just surprised me that there would be more than one group I would think that one would be sufficient for everyone to put in their thoughts on decisions.

I am also surprised at all the assumptions of tone...

It seems that no one can ask a question without people jumping to the assumption that there is tone and attitude. This is huge for everyone involved. I would think that questions would be WELCOMED not pushed aside and looked at as accusations.

Tone is VERY hard to read over the internet...especially in this medium.

Two is not 'so many'. We were ALL invited to join and Mandi et al have been nothing but transparent. Tone *is* very hard to read, so maybe a bit more than a simple 'wow' is called for.

Did you have another username before?

[Storymama]

Well, I guess I see an Announcements Only spot as for the COMMUNITY, not for the admins, but it can definitely go on the table for getting ditched. It seemed a good idea at least for the opening interim while things are bumpy, so anything important didn't get buried. I don't suppose it really has lasting necessary value.

I'm not sure exactly how we were excluding people, when the invite was open to all, but declined by most.

There are a lot of differences between this interface and the last - forum visibility (I disagree that it is a private forum at all, by the way - every single user can see/access it . . . just not nonusers) the way admin usernames function, and so on. I just don't see how people can know what they are supposed to have an opinion upon, if they haven't seen it in action.

I hope very much we can approximate how things were before, because it was a very good thing. Since we are working with a completely different toolbox, it's gonna be bumpy. I really appreciate the patience being shown while we smooth that all out.

[retro]

yes I was HC.

I put that in both...my intro post and in the post from PQ...or maybe a post that Kerry asked for.

Actually there were three...the yahoo group and two google groups? Agreed...that is not "so many" but it seems to me that 3 is 2 too many. At least if the principle of a community by the community is continued here. I think that is where the concern is. It isn't that I think the admins are these sneaky people trying to do things behind everyone's back. Far from it...I just really appreciated that fact that many decisions like throwing up a private forum or things like that were not just done and then asked about before. It was a discussion and then a vote and THEN something was done. It just seems a little backwards. Which I can TOTALLY understand with the excitement of the new forum and "toys" that go with it. I remember how excited I was when I put up the first Vbulletin thinking how awesome it would be to use and how much fun the members would have. So....I can totally understand the techie nerd in me gets all giddy just thinking of it. LOL

[retro]

the concern is that only admin can post? That is a far cry from a sticky post or an announcement bulletin to the community. That is all I am saying. Again...just another forum that no one voted on but we all of a sudden have.

[Sarah]

Oh Hi!!!

(can you maybe put that in your sig? for a week or so? I'll make pretty eyes at you.)

I think a lot of people really appreciated the tech stuff going offlist, honestly. I did -- it didn't clutter up my in box, I didn't have to wade through it on any sites, and I knew that if I wanted to see it, I had that option.

*shrug*

[retro]

I'm just flattered that you want to make pretty eyes at me....

I forgot the rest of your post after that...

LOL

now I have to make a sig?

yeesh...:jester:

[Storymama]

It was an idea I conceived of after the third install here went badly for me, and I was exhausted. Clearly I have missed the mark, and obviously it needs to be discussed at large and voted upon. I hope it is clear that I am not disagreeing with you, but also clear that I am not going to be hopping up and changing it this moment, either. As we have said, a small break is due and then we'll get back to fixing things up so they please the community. I hope you can overlook my poor decision in this instance.

[Sarah]

Heeee!

*makes eyes* ;)

[retro]

uh..ok.

I didn't expect you to just hop up and make a change.

I just wanted to voice my opinion and concerns. I hope it is understood that I didn't expect anyone to jump. I just felt it was important enough for me to express my thoughts and concerns as a member of this community.

No one is perfect Mandi. You have a lot on your plate. I can see your efforts were in trying to help. truly.

[retro]

*makes note to self - must work on sig now!*

[Storymama]

Thank you, I wasn't sure exactly what the nature of your expectation was here. I appreciate the opportunity to lay out the limitations of what can be delivered.

[jerzymama]

Can I suggest that for a while there are *no more changes* LOL :)

Would it hurt anything or be an inconvenience to you (Mandi) or anyone else if you left the google groups where they are and give people a chance to catch up on the evolution of how we *came* to be here..

I know it may sound silly - that something like a google group could have some short term historical value, but I think it does.

I really think it cannot be taken too lightly that a significant piece of our community and by extension, ourselves, has been lost. There was a LOT of significant information on the old site and while I'm all for moving forward - I would like to have a chance to catch my breath.

I also didn't catch that there was a second, technical group and I'd like to see how the discussion went..just so I can feel a part of what's happened.

Also would it be possible to post links to those and any other groups or email lists or any other YAAPS communication forums/venues that currently exist.

[Debra]

Would it hurt anything or be an inconvenience to you (Mandi) or anyone else if you left the google groups where they are and give people a chance to catch up on the evolution of how we *came* to be here...

Also would it be possible to post links to those and any other groups or email lists or any other YAAPS communication forums/venues that currently exist.

Both great ideas. I'll do that now, in fact.

[jerzymama]

xxx

[jerzymama]

xxx

[kathy caribe]

but it is a change. That is exactly what I think is unsettling for people. Before even if people didn't understand the "tech talk" at least they weren't excluded from it.

Everything before was always discussed and voted on...with a time to close the vote. That seems to have changed a bit with things being thrown up and admin status being visible, etc. And I am not talking about activating the forum as a whole but with the admin status issues being questioned and being told that will be up for discussion later. The private forum being put up without even a vote. The "read only" forum for the admins. These things are HUGE for a community that has always kept things out in the open and has prided itself in everyone having a voice.

Just from a "non-admin" point of view.

That's all.

I think the fact that you felt excluded from a group that you didn't know existed even though it was talked about extensively on the google group is testament to how difficult it would have been for Mandi and Anne and Sadie to work on techincal issues within the google group itself. If you didn't notice the multiple posts on that issue, I hope you can understand that timely technical discussions might have also been difficult to follow in the google format.

The ENTIRE format of the current forums is NOT SET IN STONE. What you consider a "private" forum is simply an example of how the forum COULD exist IF THE COMMUNITY DECIDES that is what is wanted.

Before it was very easy to vote on stuff and discuss because of the DCF forum format and the fact that Yaaps existed. You yourself have already admitted you did not see the multiple posts about the backend forum; is this format not easier to make community decisions? Would you have preferred that Yaaps be rebuilt with discussion on the google group, a group in which you already admit you have missed multiple posts?

[retro]

Uhh...I think you missed the point.

But I understand what you are trying to say.

=)

[mirage1]

the concern is that only admin can post? That is a far cry from a sticky post or an announcement bulletin to the community. That is all I am saying. Again...just another forum that no one voted on but we all of a sudden have.I guess the way I see it is kind of like how before, only an admin could "sticky" a post. It's just a different version of that, it seems to me?

[kathy caribe]

Uhh...I think you missed the point.

But I understand what you are trying to say.

=)

Would you be more comfortable with only one vB forum and that forum used to decide how the community should be setup?

[retro]

what i want to know is....


how fast exactly IS a snail on speed?

[mirage1]

zzzzzzzzzzzziiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii iiippppppppppppppppppppppppppppyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy yyyyy!

:jester:

[retro]

that's kinda moot now.

I think the step back and the decisions that the admins have made are pretty much on where we are now.

It seems that at this point in time there has been a consensus to not make more additions or changes to what was before without community vote.

[retro]

that's faster than a flickr account being upgraded in the retrohousehold!

;-)

[macaquinha]

So there.

[aleutsi]

that's kinda moot now.

I think the step back and the decisions that the admins have made are pretty much on where we are now.

It seems that at this point in time there has been a consensus to not make more additions or changes to what was before without community vote.

Which is good because I think that was the intention, of those doing all the work, when they opened the doors. Basically they said "Here's what we've managed to create so far, we'll make changes and additions once we've rested and the community votes."

[Hawthorne]

Not in reply to anyone in specific, but as far as tone is concerned, I felt like Mandi's post on the Google group heavily indicated that most of us "wouldn't understand" therefore, why would we go over to that group. I know that it was SAID that everyone was welcome, but the TONE was not terribly welcoming. In my ever-so-humble opinion.
And please, I'm not saying that to get people irritated with me, or to stir anything, I'm just saying that was the FEELING I got.

[Loopy]

I would agree with you there and to be honest, that tone started (in my opinion and for *me*) right at the beginning with the admins saying none of them were willing to even deal with dcForums again. There was no suggestion of anyone *else* installing it, just "we refuse/don't want to anymore" so I guess after reflection, that's when the feelings started for me that others were just going headlong without too much input from the community. I mean I know they "said" everyone's welcome but the tone wasn't too welcoming kwim? FTR I personally have helped with dcforum installs and found my part a breeze as well as the back office, I now Heather had them installed for several sites within..... a few hrs maybe? And I was under the impression, incorrectly, that Heather never "stepped down" as an admin and would be involved with that so I personally was confident we would have someone willing to install them again. I know she's a host re-seller as well so I just ASSumed she was asked for a price on hosting.

But obviously all that was my own I'm busy and will just assume this is the way it's going to probably go down thoughts and was totally off the mark. My reactions yesterday were because of these incorrect assumptions. I do find it off-putting to just see changes here that were never voted on and then "we can revisit later". I've NEVER been under the impression yaaps admins asked forgiveness rather than permission (just using the common saying there kwim?). I was under the impression that EVERY decision like that would be discussed and voted on, several times if necessary, BEFORE something like that would be done.

As you all know, I'm not very good at explaining myself in a flowery way but I do sincerely apologize if it felt like my posts yesterday were kicking anyone when they were down. I honestly did not mean it that way. My posts were simply a reaction to seeing a new "mgmt" who did things WAY differently than we've always done things, losing Kerry and feeling just terrible for her, and getting snipped at (others as well) when putting up a hand saying "wait a minute here". It appears both Anne and Debra took that personally and were upset - I didn't mean for that I just wanted to relay to them how, *as a member* I felt the new mgmt here was handling things.

[ADDled]

I would agree with you there and to be honest, that tone started (in my opinion and for *me*) right at the beginning with the admins saying none of them were willing to even deal with dcForums again. There was no suggestion of anyone *else* installing it, just "we refuse/don't want to anymore" so I guess after reflection, that's when the feelings started for me that others were just going headlong without too much input from the community.
Not contradicting you - you felt how you felt. But I feel compelled to say that personally, I was just watching it all go by and hoping a forum would be up again soon, but I did NOT feel the way you and Rebecca say you felt (again, not saying your feelings were wrong, just that there was at least one other who was not reading that tone from Mandi and other admins).

Here's what I saw from my seat in the corner of the blue couch - it was terrible to use the google group, Mandi and others said there was a separate, spinoff forum to discuss technical stuff, everyone was welcome to join.

I saw multiple invites for the whole group and links to the other forum.

I saw one post in which Mandi said she was not personally willing to explain in layman's terms on the backend group, because it would just slow down the talks or some such.

I saw Mandi go into GREAT detail, in layman's terms, on the regular google group (not the spinoff, backend group) about anything anyone had a question on.

I saw some people see things discussed on the backend group or hear about them, and bring them back to the main google group to ask admins a question, and I saw Mandi and others again go into great detail in layman's terms to explain.

I saw every single person who had any knowledge about technical stuff or time to implement it say DCforums was too hard to set up and they were not willing, but I DID see them say that DCforums was great to use and if someone ELSE wanted to set it up, fine.

I did NOT see anyone volunteering to set up DCforums.

I saw a handful of people (I'm not going to list them for fear of leaving someone out inadvertently) work very hard, for very long, long hours, to set up something I know nothing about, for nothing. No money, no administrative "power" so to speak (since our community votes on everything, no one person has "power" or whatever, that's probably not the right word), and not even thanks from some people.

Honestly? I think we tend to take for granted that the technology is there for us to chat with each other from all over the world, and when the technology fails or needs to be re-setup, we take for granted that someone will do it for us. But I don't understand the attitude (again, not talking specifically about Loopy or anyone, just continuing my thoughts) - the general attitude that if we just snap our fingers, someone should spend seventy-two hours setting up some technology for us for free when we don't know how to ourselves or don't have time to ourselves and then we should a. complain that it's not the exact way we want it; b. insinuate that the people that set it up for us are "power grabbing" if they just set up a feature without immediately putting every tiny decision to a community vote; c. chide them for setting up a (public) forum to discuss the technical aspects of getting all this technical stuff set up and just getting down to business.

I really don't understand the mindset. I've set up all kinds of complicated things like this, including a local forum here, and really, I've seen groups nominate groups of volunteers to do the work, and I've seen people pay people to do the work, and I've never seen the amount of animosity about every single minute detail. Why can't we let the people who KNOW how, who are willing to VOLUNTEER loads of their time, just set the damn thing up without quibbling about every little detail and why don't we let them just go have some conversations about code and crap without worrying about looking over their shoulders? And if they stick some stuff in we don't like, why don't we just take their advice and use the thing for two weeks and then vote, like we like to do, on whether to keep it as is or change it? Why does it have to be this great big emotional mess?

I know nobody intends it to, but to me it comes across as ungrateful and selfish to treat the people that volunteered to do this for us as if they are doing every little thing wrong. To question every decision they made over a several-day period when they were just trying to get the thing running. If I were one of the people who set this up, it would seriously make me question ever doing something so nice and unselfish for any group of people again!

And believe you me, if I ever learn enough about code and forums and crap to ever set up a forum, you can bet your booty I will be making the administrative decisions about the mundane everyday crap, if I'm the one putting the time in to set the thing up and run it in the first place!

Bottom line? Websites don't run themselves, and they don't set themselves up. People do, and if we're going to ask people to do so for us, we should be a little kinder.

Again, need to reiterate this was not directed at Loopy specifically, but just ended up here because I had to put it someplace in the thread where it made a little sense.

[aleutsi]

I would agree with you there and to be honest, that tone started (in my opinion and for *me*) right at the beginning with the admins saying none of them were willing to even deal with dcForums again. There was no suggestion of anyone *else* installing it, just "we refuse/don't want to anymore" so I guess after reflection, that's when the feelings started for me that others were just going headlong without too much input from the community. I mean I know they "said" everyone's welcome but the tone wasn't too welcoming kwim? FTR I personally have helped with dcforum installs and found my part a breeze as well as the back office, I now Heather had them installed for several sites within..... a few hrs maybe? And I was under the impression, incorrectly, that Heather never "stepped down" as an admin and would be involved with that so I personally was confident we would have someone willing to install them again. I know she's a host re-seller as well so I just ASSumed she was asked for a price on hosting.

But obviously all that was my own I'm busy and will just assume this is the way it's going to probably go down thoughts and was totally off the mark. My reactions yesterday were because of these incorrect assumptions. I do find it off-putting to just see changes here that were never voted on and then "we can revisit later". I've NEVER been under the impression yaaps admins asked forgiveness rather than permission (just using the common saying there kwim?). I was under the impression that EVERY decision like that would be discussed and voted on, several times if necessary, BEFORE something like that would be done.

As you all know, I'm not very good at explaining myself in a flowery way but I do sincerely apologize if it felt like my posts yesterday were kicking anyone when they were down. I honestly did not mean it that way. My posts were simply a reaction to seeing a new "mgmt" who did things WAY differently than we've always done things, losing Kerry and feeling just terrible for her, and getting snipped at (others as well) when putting up a hand saying "wait a minute here". It appears both Anne and Debra took that personally and were upset - I didn't mean for that I just wanted to relay to them how, *as a member* I felt the new mgmt here was handling things.

And see, I was reading all that and thinking they put out there what their limitations as techies were and if anyone could do better or help, then step up and be involved in the conversations. If *I* had experience with DCF and reinstalling it, I sure would have volunteered because I love DCF! But I'm clueless, so I let those who weren't take the lead.


Also, I don't see how we could have a real vote and discuss these things w/o there actually being a community -- it was obliterated when yaaps went down - and the yahoo list and google were hard to navigate. Those of us, who managed to congregate together, participated in a rough poll that landed us here, where we CAN sufficiently vote on things.

How long did the admins have the forum before they opened the doors.. a day? We were let in very quickly, before the sheetrock was even up, so to speak. They opened it up that quickly so we could get in here and talk about things and decide - they only asked that they have a break before anyone expected them to work again.

If we didn't have that rough vote and if the techies that DID step up and do something had not done anything at all, we wouldn't be here to discuss this - AFAIK our old site is still down in a bad way, we can't even get to our old community votes to reference what we HAVE decided on in the past.. we're all just going by memory.

That said, I can see how others saw it differently. But I hope they can see now that the techs and admins weren't trying to roughshod over everyone, they were just trying to get the community back in one decent place.

[ADDled]

I just really appreciated that fact that many decisions like throwing up a private forum or things like that were not just done and then asked about before.
But it WAS asked about before, and you missed it. And probably others did too.

Not your fault, it's the fault of Google Groups for being so damn ineffective for large volume groups.

So what do you want? Some things were asked about/discussed on the MAIN Google group that we all took PAINS to find everyone and invite everyone to. And you MISSED it because it got buried or whatever.

And then since things were getting MISSED on Google groups and there were so many things to discuss, they threw up this forum and said "nothing is set in stone, but we just need to be here so things won't get missed when we discuss them" and then people are up in arms because things are here without being voted on!

So I think what people are trying to say to you, is, what do you want? Do you want people to ask about/discuss everything on the Google group before this gets set up, so you can MISS the whole thing and have no input? Or do you want them to just throw it up here, let you know you can change it with a vote if you don't like it, so you can bitch that they set it up without your input?

There's your choice - do you want to bitch about this or do you want to bitch about that?

Oh, wait! There's another option! We could just be grateful that these gals gave up seventy-two hours of their lives they will never get back to set this up for us, thank them, and then change the things we don't like.

[ADDled]

Annie, you said that so much nicer than I did. Ignore me, read Annie's. She's sweet.

[retro]

I do believe there has been a lot of thanks and kudos to those who have set this up. No one said they weren't grateful.

There was just surprise when things had been added that were never voted on to begin with. When I was actively addressing admin issues *never* just did something. I always understood that *this* particular community wanted input and would put things to a vote with an ending day. I think we even voted on how long a vote should go for...for those who don't log in daily.

That seemed to go out the window to some respect and I think members should be able to raise their hands and say "hey what happened to our decisions before everything went bye bye?".

I have also put up various communities such as this in vbulletin and in DCforums as well (and a few other variations). I don't think it is a problem to separate between discussion of a forum setup and people feeling ungrateful. Being on the tech end I would WANT people to tell me if I messed up or didn't do something the way the community wanted...I wanted a product that was what people paid for...not what I thought they should have. I am NOT saying that is what the admins here did, I'm just saying when it is all said and done when it comes to issues such as forums we have never had I don't see that as being ungrateful.

I didn't volunteer for anything because I wasn't notified of anything until after many decisions were already made. It seemed rather useless at that point since people were already in place to do things.

*shrug*

But really I don't think people are ungrateful.

[Nirinjan]

I know nobody intends it to, but to me it comes across as ungrateful and selfish to treat the people that volunteered to do this for us as if they are doing every little thing wrong. To question every decision they made over a several-day period when they were just trying to get the thing running. If I were one of the people who set this up, it would seriously make me question ever doing something so nice and unselfish for any group of people again!


Bottom line? Websites don't run themselves, and they don't set themselves up. People do, and if we're going to ask people to do so for us, we should be a little kinder.


I totally agree with everything in your post, but I think what I quoted above bears repeating. It's like kids opening a gift at their birthday party and complaining because it's the wrong color Bionicle or something. :meh:

Nirinjan

[retro]

Voicing my concern over forums we never had before has NOTHING to do with my being grateful for the work that was put in.

I think you have the two confused.

I could have been hurt since I was an admin and was never asked or addressed on the issues at hand but being as I wasn't actively doing anything I didn't feel it a slight.

I'm not bitching about anything. I'm was just wondering why our forum set up had changed from the previous (set up meaning new forums that were never voted on and the privacy issue).

I think as a member of this community I should be able to voice my concern about the changes I saw (as unintentional as they were).

I find it interesting that voicing an opinion or concern over changes equals ungratefulness or bitching to you. Is it your opinion people should just shut up and not say anything?

[Amanda_Reyasmom]

Annie, you said that so much nicer than I did. Ignore me, read Annie's. She's sweet.

ROFL, I've had that thought about a number of people here! I like it when they post first so I can just say "I agree" :angel:

[Kerry]

I totally agree with everything in your post, but I think what I quoted above bears repeating. It's like kids opening a gift at their birthday party and complaining because it's the wrong color Bionicle or something. :meh:

Nirinjan

I think that's unfair, because the members here PAY for the site. At most other sites, that's certainly not the case.

And people aren't bitching about the color scheme here. They have concerns about a "private" forum, which is a HUGE departure from the entire philosophy on which YAAPS was created. I don't think they're being petty by voicing their concerns.

[Nirinjan]

I have also put up various communities such as this in vbulletin and in DCforums as well (and a few other variations). I don't think it is a problem to separate between discussion of a forum setup and people feeling ungrateful.


If you have things that you would like to see addressed by the admin when they have time again, then add it to the list that Kari started. Your serial posts about things that you are unhappy about are coming across in a tone that I am not sure that you intend, but that is hurtful to the admin and not constructive to the community we are all working on re-building from scratch.

Nirinjan

[ADDled]

YES! Dammit, Mandi, why didn't you ask me before you went and bought that $80 Transformer Action Figure?! I wanted the other kind! Sheesh!I totally agree with everything in your post, but I think what I quoted above bears repeating. It's like kids opening a gift at their birthday party and complaining because it's the wrong color Bionicle or something. :meh:

Nirinjan

[retro]

Uh..Kari's done a great job of that.

I haven't started anything new. I'm just responding to what has been directed to me.

That is serial posting?

okay.

[Nirinjan]

I think that's unfair, because the members here PAY for the site. At most other sites, that's certainly not the case.

Sure, members pay for the hosting and the software, but AFAIK, no one has ever been paid for their time spent setting up forums and other admin duties. They (and you) are giving us a gift - their time and expertise with things that most of us don't have a clue about. Let's be grateful for that and give them the few days they asked for to get things settled.

Nirinjan

[Kerry]

Sure, members pay for the hosting and the software, but AFAIK, no one has ever been paid for their time spent setting up forums and other admin duties. They (and you) are giving us a gift - their time and expertise with things that most of us don't have a clue about. Let's be grateful for that and give them the few days they asked for to get things settled.

Nirinjan

I guess I just don't see bringing up concerns to be addressed when the admins have some free time as being ungrateful. I've seen a LOT of gratitude expressed to the admins for what they've accomplished.

[Hawthorne]

I totally agree with everything in your post, but I think what I quoted above bears repeating. It's like kids opening a gift at their birthday party and complaining because it's the wrong color Bionicle or something. :meh:

Nirinjan

Except for that these kids help pay for the present.

[ADDled]

Again, I said over and over that I wasn't specifically referring to only your words, but that our attitude in general as a community has been bitch and ungrateful.

There are people who worked very hard on this stuff for in tears over this. I am not kidding. We have been so unkind that people are at home crying because their feelings are hurt.

I have probably a too highly developed sense of justice, but i t just feels so UNFAIR that everyone did the best they could to find people when our site went down, and some people even put in countless hours for NOTHING and now people being unkind to them.

HOW exactly would YOU have done it? How would you have found everyone and made sure they were included in a vote on every aspect of this new forum? Nobody had a master list of all the yaaps members. Nobody had everyone's email list and phone numbers. Nobody could even tell who was on the google group and who wasn't! I personally tried to make a spreadsheet of who had found us already by username and former username to share with the group (and posted to that effect), but I couldn't make it work. How would YOU have done it differently?

How exactly would YOU have put every little technical decision to a vote on that Google group? There was no polling option. The decisions we made at yaaps about how long to leave a poll up were based on using forum software and knowing how often everyone was on! I "paged" Jill on the Google group, for example, and it took her a couple days to respond. On the previous software, I'd have had her in a few hours. How would YOU have decided how long to leave a poll up? How would YOU have polled people on that temporary setup? How would YOU have made sure everyone had a voice and nobody was left out, since the way it WAS done you have made very clear was WRONG?

We can do as they asked - live with the forum as it is (that they did their best to OPENLY and TRANSPARENTLY ask for input about) and then put the things to a vote that we don't like/want changed. This is what is the kind way to do it.

Or we can bitch and moan and accuse people of doing it all wrong and not asking for input in the CORRECT way and for the CORRECT length of time and it's all THEIR fault that you felt excluded and even though they did their best to find us all and get all our input.

Again, even though *you* are the most vocal complainer in *this thread* some of the things about the complaining and the tones and kicking people who have done their best for us are NOT JUST YOU - it's the collective tone of this community right now, and I'm allowed to point it out and we all could benefit from figuring out if we can find a way to nicely ask for change by putting it to a vote without making people CRY, for God's sake!

Voicing my concern over forums we never had before has NOTHING to do with my being grateful for the work that was put in.

I think you have the two confused.

I could have been hurt since I was an admin and was never asked or addressed on the issues at hand but being as I wasn't actively doing anything I didn't feel it a slight.

I'm not bitching about anything. I'm was just wondering why our forum set up had changed from the previous (set up meaning new forums that were never voted on and the privacy issue).

I think as a member of this community I should be able to voice my concern about the changes I saw (as unintentional as they were).

I find it interesting that voicing an opinion or concern over changes equals ungratefulness or bitching to you. Is it your opinion people should just shut up and not say anything?

[Kerry]

Wow, Amy. I'm not even sure how to address this without totally losing it.

Suffice it to say that I think it's really unfair to say that everyone has a voice, and then try to shut people up.

I also think it's unfair and manipulative to essentially blame people who are voicing legitimate concerns for making people cry.

I think it's really unfair that people who are voicing legitimate concerns are being accused of being ungrateful.

Perhaps we should start paying the administrators a salary, so that people will feel like they have a right to have concerns/criticisms and to voice them.

As an admin, I DAMN WELL wanted people to tell me if they thought I misstepped or took something upon myself that perhaps I should have left to the community to decide. And it didn't matter that I volunteered my services. That's what the whole freakin' site is all about - being the COMMUNITY'S website.

I have to say that if "but they're volunteering" is going to be held up over the community's head every time there is a criticism, then I'm all for paying someone to run the site.

[ADDled]

And neither did we. Unless we're going to earmark part of that paypal account to pay these ladies for their time. Which would be fine by me.

We paid for the hosting and for the software. We didn't pay someone to set it up.

And in my not so humble opinion, I HAVE had employees that are paid and I STILL don't think it's OK to be mean and unkind, even if the employees flub up everything!

I'm not saying we shouldn't ask for things to be changed. But many of us have gone well beyond asking that things be changed. Many of us have been unkind and accusatory, and even if we had the "right" to because we paid these ladies, I still hold that we should not. I think we should list what we'd like to see changed/voted on (and I like the way Kari started a central place for that) and then put them to a vote!

[~PQ]

Niri I am a little shocked to be honest- the people who set this up and do the admin stuff nominated themselves. We're all thankful they did so but no one asked ME to help. No one asked YOU to help. So let's not set up some scenario where we, the members of yaaps, begged any specific person or people to do this for us, and that we just didn't bother to give any help. Isn't this right now, part of the work needed- we are city planning here, we are setting up a new village. Not all of us are doing techie work, some of us are looking at blueprints and pointing and what should go where. That's valid too. And frankly, so is the fact a lot of us are paying for this.

I feel like I need to caveat any and every post here multiple times because it sounds bratty to say this on the heels of all the hard work these admin did, but it makes me really uncomfortable to read that because folks donated their time, I should not critique the software settings or the way yaaps is set up to be "governed". The neat thing about yaaps for me, has always been the communal aspect.

[Hawthorne]

Wow, Amy. I'm not even sure how to address this without totally losing it.

Suffice it to say that I think it's really unfair to say that everyone has a voice, and then try to shut people up.

I also think it's unfair and manipulative to essentially blame people who are voicing legitimate concerns for making people cry.

I think it's really unfair that people who are voicing legitimate concerns are being accused of being ungrateful.

Perhaps we should start paying the volunteers a salary, so that people will feel like they have a right to have concerns and to voice them.

Furthermore, there are a lot of people who aren't happy who are just *not saying anything* because they don't want to rock the boat or be flogged, because they happen to be, well, probably nicer than me. I would venture to say that there are people who aren't planning on ever being involved here ever. How many people said that they would most likely just stop posting if we switched to VB? I mean, it's all fine that it was put to vote, that's good, but what about those handful of people who said no? because it just means that THEY were hung out to dry, instead of the admins.
And FTR, I did vote for VB because I was put under the impression that it was much easier for our... T&A's? to work with and I was willing to sacrifice that myself.

[Kerry]

And in my not so humble opinion, I HAVE had employees that are paid and I STILL don't think it's OK to be mean and unkind, even if the employees flub up everything!

Well, I guess that's the crux of the matter, then. Everyone is going to have a different opinion of what constitutes "mean and unkind." Perhaps I'm just used to the other sites I post at, where people are a lot more blunt and don't go to great pains to sugar coat things. They just state their opinions.

I haven't seen anyone here be "mean and unkind."

[ADDled]

I'm not trying to shut anyone up. I think we should be kind to people who have volunteered HUGE amounts of time and energy for us. I think there's a way to voice concerns without being unkind, accusatory, sarcastic, rude, and all manner of things I've seen here in the last couple days.

Yes, we should ask for change in the things we don't like here. A simple "I don't like the private forum, can we put it to a vote?" would not make someone cry (I should hope!). A simple list of the concerns regarding the private forum, "I personally don't like the idea becuase X, Y, and Z" (which frankly, I've seen you say, Kerry, and your point is taken, because you weren't rude and mean) would be fine!

I'm not objecting to the concerns, I'm objecting to the nastiness. Historically at yaaps, we've largely been able to disagree with each other without resorting to hurting feelings, and we've been able to be big enough to apologize to each other and preserve our relationships when we do hurt feelings.

It's OK for me to object to the rude, mean, sarcastic, passive agressive tone of many of the posts here at yaaps right now, and point out the personal emotional effects of these type of posts. That is not the yaaps I have known and loved over the last several years. I've been on forums where it's like this, and I've not wanted to be around the negativity for long. And honestly, nobody does, except people that feed on drama.

We can express all kinds of emotions regarding the changes at yaaps and all kinds of personal concerns without attacking. I'm asking that people please not attack. I'm saying it's not OK to attack. Some people might disagree with me. But it's how I feel on the subject.

[Hawthorne]

Well, I guess that's the crux of the matter, then. Everyone is going to have a different opinion of what constitutes "mean and unkind." Perhaps I'm just used to the other sites I post at, where people are a lot more blunt and don't go to great pains to sugar coat things. They just state their opinions.

I haven't seen anyone here be "mean and unkind."

I nearly posted the same. I certainly haven't seen anyone be mean; they haven't been by my definitions.

[ADDled]

I feel like I need to caveat any and every post here multiple times because it sounds bratty to say this on the heels of all the hard work these admin did, but it makes me really uncomfortable to read that because folks donated their time, I should not critique the software settings or the way yaaps is set up to be "governed". The neat thing about yaaps for me, has always been the communal aspect.
Critique away. I've not heard you be unkind.

I think that's the major difference I'm seeing. There is "I'd rather it be this way," "I'd rather there not be private forums," "Let's vote on the setup of the admins/whether we'll have admins/etc."

Then there's the sarcasm, the accusation, the complaining, the meanness, the rudeness, the passive agressiveness (which I've not heard from you at all, PQ).

There's a difference. I think that's what Niri's pointing out, though of course I can't speak for Niri.

[Loopy]

Well clearly it's a simple thing of two people watching a situation and coming to entirely different conclusions. As I've stated, everyone can see this all how they want. You've got your way and I've got mine. The wonderful things is, I *thought* we were both free to speak our minds about how we see it. Obviously if I'm making people CRY for God's sake and pointing out where people are perhaps just a tad bit a little possibly getting too ahead of themselves or not thinking of the WAY IT'S ALWAYS BEEN then clearly I have been wrong abuot the entire fucking point and tone of yaaps.

Never mind then. I couldn't give a rat's ass what anyone does at this point because clearly they're going to do whateverthefuck they want and then expect people to thank them for it (as has been the case before) and cry when it doesn't happen. My mistake. I ASSumed the community was beyond this kind of bullshit.

Never mind and I'm out.



And see, I was reading all that and thinking they put out there what their limitations as techies were and if anyone could do better or help, then step up and be involved in the conversations. If *I* had experience with DCF and reinstalling it, I sure would have volunteered because I love DCF! But I'm clueless, so I let those who weren't take the lead.


Also, I don't see how we could have a real vote and discuss these things w/o there actually being a community -- it was obliterated when yaaps went down - and the yahoo list and google were hard to navigate. Those of us, who managed to congregate together, participated in a rough poll that landed us here, where we CAN sufficiently vote on things.

How long did the admins have the forum before they opened the doors.. a day? We were let in very quickly, before the sheetrock was even up, so to speak. They opened it up that quickly so we could get in here and talk about things and decide - they only asked that they have a break before anyone expected them to work again.

If we didn't have that rough vote and if the techies that DID step up and do something had not done anything at all, we wouldn't be here to discuss this - AFAIK our old site is still down in a bad way, we can't even get to our old community votes to reference what we HAVE decided on in the past.. we're all just going by memory.

That said, I can see how others saw it differently. But I hope they can see now that the techs and admins weren't trying to roughshod over everyone, they were just trying to get the community back in one decent place.

[Kerry]

I'm not trying to shut anyone up. I think we should be kind to people who have volunteered HUGE amounts of time and energy for us. I think there's a way to voice concerns without being unkind, accusatory, sarcastic, rude, and all manner of things I've seen here in the last couple days.

Yes, we should ask for change in the things we don't like here. A simple "I don't like the private forum, can we put it to a vote?" would not make someone cry (I should hope!). A simple list of the concerns regarding the private forum, "I personally don't like the idea becuase X, Y, and Z" (which frankly, I've seen you say, Kerry, and your point is taken, because you weren't rude and mean) would be fine!

I'm not objecting to the concerns, I'm objecting to the nastiness. Historically at yaaps, we've largely been able to disagree with each other without resorting to hurting feelings, and we've been able to be big enough to apologize to each other and preserve our relationships when we do hurt feelings.

It's OK for me to object to the rude, mean, sarcastic, passive agressive tone of many of the posts here at yaaps right now, and point out the personal emotional effects of these type of posts. That is not the yaaps I have known and loved over the last several years. I've been on forums where it's like this, and I've not wanted to be around the negativity for long. And honestly, nobody does, except people that feed on drama.

We can express all kinds of emotions regarding the changes at yaaps and all kinds of personal concerns without attacking. I'm asking that people please not attack. I'm saying it's not OK to attack. Some people might disagree with me. But it's how I feel on the subject.

And I'm not seeing the nastiness that you're seeing, Amy. I think that's where the basic disagreement lies.

[ADDled]

Furthermore, there are a lot of people who aren't happy who are just *not saying anything* because they don't want to rock the boat or be flogged, because they happen to be, well, probably nicer than me. I would venture to say that there are people who aren't planning on ever being involved here ever. How many people said that they would most likely just stop posting if we switched to VB? I mean, it's all fine that it was put to vote, that's good, but what about those handful of people who said no? because it just means that THEY were hung out to dry, instead of the admins.
And FTR, I did vote for VB because I was put under the impression that it was much easier for our... T&A's? to work with and I was willing to sacrifice that myself.
That's really sad. I would hate it if we lost even one person to it (though I know people said that was a possibility).

But I'm unsure of what the alternative is?

I saw the vote results - weren't there, like, eighty-something votes FOR vBulletin, and like, five for "NO" or "OTHER?"

I mean, I don't know enough to know what else we could have done in the face of that but set up vBulletin, you know?

And I just don't know how we could have continued to have a discussion on that damn Google group without missing people. We were missing people all over the place!

So what would the alternative be?

We can express our frustration by it. I'm extremely frustrated that this seems to be tearing apart our community. I love our community and the people in it!

But yes, I have seen people be all manner of rude about it, and I don't feel it's right in any circumstances.

[retro]

Well, alrighty then.

I think you forget I was on that end at yaaps.

You are so far off the mark and projecting your own emotions into this thread I don't think it would be prudent to address your accusations.

[Schmirlies]

:cop: (blue light special -- $.02 for the price of $.01)

I'm not even a big participater at YAAPS, but I am a web application developer and have developed and maintained other discussion boards. I thought I could throw in some knowledge and ideas.

I threw in my opinions on hosting and forums software and the ideas were welcomed and considered. Until, it was asked if I had time to administer a Windows server or set up Windows based forums software. :embarass:

I do not have the time, so the the concensus was to go back to the hosting platform and software the people who DO have time were familiar with.

I never felt like my suggestions were unwelcome.

[ADDled]

My God, and we're claiming people aren't being mean? This just makes me cringe!

Frankly, that's just nasty and it makes your complaints, at least to me, less worth of hearing if you're going to state them like that. Why the fuck do you think it's OK to be nasty like that?

For the record, there are lots of people who feel JUST like you do and NOT like I do, and they're being heard, because they're being respectful of the feelings of others.

People are much more important than anything else, in my opinion. If we don't value the feelings of each other, then WHY are we here? We can get parenting advice, alternative medicine advice, whatever anywhere. We're here to be with each other. Let's not be like this. Well clearly it's a simple thing of two people watching a situation and coming to entirely different conclusions. As I've stated, everyone can see this all how they want. You've got your way and I've got mine. The wonderful things is, I *thought* we were both free to speak our minds about how we see it. Obviously if I'm making people CRY for God's sake and pointing out where people are perhaps just a tad bit a little possibly getting too ahead of themselves or not thinking of the WAY IT'S ALWAYS BEEN then clearly I have been wrong abuot the entire fucking point and tone of yaaps.

Never mind then. I couldn't give a rat's ass what anyone does at this point because clearly they're going to do whateverthefuck they want and then expect people to thank them for it (as has been the case before) and cry when it doesn't happen. My mistake. I ASSumed the community was beyond this kind of bullshit.

Never mind and I'm out.

[Kerry]

Amy, with all due respect, maybe part of the problem is that instead of addressing one person for being objectionable (which you did NOW, thank you), you seem to be painting all people with criticism or concerns with the same broad brush.

[Hawthorne]

Honestly, I don't even see what Lisa said as being mean. "Mean" to me is name calling and pointing fingers at particular people... "so and so is such a bitch". Lisa is frustrated, which is a far cry from "mean". Frankly, I'm headed in the same direction that she is, which is out the door. Then the people that like the community on the platter it was served to them on, can just be left alone.

My God, and we're claiming people aren't being mean? This just makes me cringe!

Frankly, that's just nasty and it makes your complaints, at least to me, less worth of hearing if you're going to state them like that. Why the fuck do you think it's OK to be nasty like that?

For the record, there are lots of people who feel JUST like you do and NOT like I do, and they're being heard, because they're being respectful of the feelings of others.

People are much more important than anything else, in my opinion. If we don't value the feelings of each other, then WHY are we here? We can get parenting advice, alternative medicine advice, whatever anywhere. We're here to be with each other. Let's not be like this.

[ADDled]

Amy, with all due respect, maybe part of the problem is that instead of addressing one person for being objectionable (which you did NOW, thank you), you seem to be painting all people with criticism or concerns with the same broad brush.
I think you're probably right. I didn't mean to, but looking back, I can see how it is read that way.

For that I'm sorry. In my effort to NOT single out anyone and get into a personal pissing match, I was being too general.

[aleutsi]

Well clearly it's a simple thing of two people watching a situation and coming to entirely different conclusions.

Exactly what I was trying to illustrate by posting how I saw it. I agree!


As I've stated, everyone can see this all how they want. You've got your way and I've got mine. The wonderful things is, I *thought* we were both free to speak our minds about how we see it. Obviously if I'm making people CRY for God's sake and pointing out where people are perhaps just a tad bit a little possibly getting too ahead of themselves or not thinking of the WAY IT'S ALWAYS BEEN then clearly I have been wrong abuot the entire fucking point and tone of yaaps.

Never mind then. I couldn't give a rat's ass what anyone does at this point because clearly they're going to do whateverthefuck they want and then expect people to thank them for it (as has been the case before) and cry when it doesn't happen. My mistake. I ASSumed the community was beyond this kind of bullshit.

Never mind and I'm out.

I wasn't saying anyone wasn't free to speak their minds about how they saw the past two weeks' events. Am I not just as free to post how I saw it? How is anything I've said BS?

Also, I think those who have stepped up and volunteered to provide the labor on this site have repeatedly said "Here is a place for you, we're going to take a little time off and then we'll fix it up how you like it". I don't see them saying "just take it and thank us" AT ALL!

[sarahs]

One person is being mean, Lisa. Lisa has, in my experience, been caustic from time to time in her posts. I don't take her individual tone as more than that, *her* individual tone. I truly believe that to take it as more than that only increases the potential for drama. And I value YAAPS as a relatively drama free community. It was when I was finally able to separate caustic posters from the community as a whole that I leapt into YAAPS with both feet.

I know that in general, people at YAAPS are understanding that this is a hugely traumatic event for the community and we are all coming to terms with it in our own way. No one is a bad actor here. We are all human. I think we all get that those who have done the hard work have big feelings about this and those whose community imploded have big feelings about this. And, just like in any positive, loving relationship we are going to work that through.

And I think for the most part we are working it through with respectful dialogue, maybe sometimes hurtful dialogue but any critique, even if said with loving and respectful honesty can still hurt.

But I know with time we are going to be fine.

[Kerry]

I think Shmirlies was agreeing with you, Trish.

[aleutsi]

Honestly, I don't even see what Lisa said as being mean. "Mean" to me is name calling and pointing fingers at particular people... "so and so is such a bitch". Lisa is frustrated, which is a far cry from "mean". Frankly, I'm headed in the same direction that she is, which is out the door. Then the people that like the community on the platter it was served to them on, can just be left alone.

Do you really think that Mandi, Debra, Sadie and Anne are just serving us a community on a platter and expecting us to just eat it as is? Have you missed the posts saying that we're going to vote on everything? We have to rebuild everything. We have to re-decide everything. Or should we just go by our memories of what the community has already decided - more than once at the old place, we had to dig into the archives to see what the community decided on such and such. How are we going to do that now? It's already been demonstrated how different people can see things differently, how are we all collectively going to remember everything the exact same way?

Can we exert a little patience so that they can have a break and then be invovled in the decision making, too?

And am I one of the "people" you mentioned that can just be left alone with my platter of community?

[leannan_si]

I'll just say here that I don't think a group like that, where things about the community's future and how options should be presented to the community, should be deleted. I think that they should be saved like the voting threads.

[Kerry]

Do you really think that Mandi, Debra, Sadie and Anne are just serving us a community on a platter and expecting us to just eat it as is? Have you missed the posts saying that we're going to vote on everything? We have to rebuild everything. We have to re-decide everything. Or should we just go by our memories of what the community has already decided - more than once at the old place, we had to dig into the archives to see what the community decided on such and such. How are we going to do that now? It's already been demonstrated how different people can see things differently, how are we all collectively going to remember everything the exact same way?

Can we exert a little patience so that they can have a break and then be invovled in the decision making, too?

And am I one of the "people" you mentioned that can just be left alone with my platter of community?

And what I see is that people are bringing up these issues so that when they DO come back and are ready to address them, we will have brainstormed what the issues are and have them consolidated in one place. I don't see anyone saying FIX THIS NOW!

[aleutsi]

I'll just say here that I don't think a group like that, where things about the community's future and how options should be presented to the community, should be deleted. I think that they should be saved like the voting threads.

I agree! Or if it is deleted, all the content cut and pasted and archived here on site before the group is deleted.

[Hawthorne]

What I'm saying that I feel like certain people have a right to be angry and frustrated and they're being told not to be angry and frustrated. I don't have any particular reason to be upset with anything except for that dismissive tone I'm reading.

eta, I'm referring to anyone who is willing to stay on the ride. If that's you, then yes. My point is that there are already people who have left or are leaving. More power to you, it's not an insult, it's just a fact that some people are okay with the changes and others aren't. I'm not asking anyone to fix anything, I'm talking about past events and implications. What's done is done.


Do you really think that Mandi, Debra, Sadie and Anne are just serving us a community on a platter and expecting us to just eat it as is? Have you missed the posts saying that we're going to vote on everything? We have to rebuild everything. We have to re-decide everything. Or should we just go by our memories of what the community has already decided - more than once at the old place, we had to dig into the archives to see what the community decided on such and such. How are we going to do that now? It's already been demonstrated how different people can see things differently, how are we all collectively going to remember everything the exact same way?

Can we exert a little patience so that they can have a break and then be invovled in the decision making, too?

And am I one of the "people" you mentioned that can just be left alone with my platter of community?

[aleutsi]

And what I see is that people are bringing up these issues so that when they DO come back and are ready to address them, we will have brainstormed what the issues are and have them consolidated in one place. I don't see anyone saying FIX THIS NOW!

I have seen a "fix it now" implied IRT the hidden/private forum. Or at least that's how I remember reading it. I could be wrong.

I agree about the discussions to an extent, I think they'd like to be invovled in the brainstorming - voting in polls, too.

I just don't see waiting a few days as accepting everything as is.

[ADDled]

By whom? If by me, I'm being misunderstood. Probably my fault for not saying it well, and I'm sorry.

I'm not telling people not to be angry or frustrated. I'm saying there have been posts (not yours, Rebecca) where people have been mean (sometimes outwardly mean, sometimes just passive or sarcastic) and it's hurtful, and I'd like it to stop.

And I saw above where you said you didn't see it as mean. And that brings up a good point. It's not one I can wrap my mind around right now, but it is a good point.

Bottom line, there's no reason to hurt other people's feelings when we'r angry or frustrated. I don't think anyone can argue with that. If I came across as saying people can't be angry or frustrated, or that people's concerns should be dismissed, my bad.What I'm saying that I feel like certain people have a right to be angry and frustrated and they're being told not to be angry and frustrated. I don't have any particular reason to be upset with anything except for that dismissive tone I'm reading.

[Hawthorne]

Again, I don't think that was a FIX IT NOW, it was a WHAT THE HELL DID YOU DO?
People wanted to know why it was there at all.

I have seen a "fix it now" implied IRT the hidden/private forum. Or at least that's how I remember reading it. I could be wrong.

I agree about the discussions to an extent, I think they'd like to be invovled in the brainstorming - voting in polls, too.

I just don't see waiting a few days as accepting everything as is.

[Kerry]

-nt-

Your response to her made it sound like you thought she was disagreeing. Sorry.

[Kerry]

I have seen a "fix it now" implied IRT the hidden/private forum. Or at least that's how I remember reading it. I could be wrong.

I agree about the discussions to an extent, I think they'd like to be invovled in the brainstorming - voting in polls, too.

I just don't see waiting a few days as accepting everything as is.

What I saw was people saying "Why is this here, and can we please make this one of the very first things we address, since it's such a huge departure from the old YAAPS?"

[aleutsi]

Again, I don't think that was a FIX IT NOW, it was a WHAT THE HELL DID YOU DO?
People wanted to know why it was there at all.

But when it was explained why it was there, people asked "Why is it STILL there" - implying, to my mind, that it be taken down stat.

[sarahs]

I think there is upset and defensiveness, yes. But I think for the most part folks aren't being dismissive. I think Amy/ADDled, got upset at a couple remarks by one person and she admits she painted a broad brush. I can relate because I tend to want to jump in as a peacemaker where sometimes things just have to run their course of disagreement.

But overall I see the admins and the members, saying yea, lets have this stuff out here and deal with it as a community even if its hard to hear and I see people stating their concerns, their upset and being heard. I think we can be both grateful for the incredible gift we have in YAAPS and figure out how to make it work the best for all of us without being or appearing or being labelled as ungracious selfish bitches.:p I don't see you being one, or Kerry, or me or PQ or Tasia or Candeo or....

What I'm saying that I feel like certain people have a right to be angry and frustrated and they're being told not to be angry and frustrated. I don't have any particular reason to be upset with anything except for that dismissive tone I'm reading.

[Hawthorne]

Thanks, Amy... I didn't specifically mean you. Actually, I think you got a little angry and frustrated up there too. ;) LOL I can see the effort you're putting into being a peacemaker and respect that.
I see two sides, one saying, "my feelings were dismissed, I was ignored, I was left out" (or my friend's feelings were dismissed), the other saying, "I'm sorry, that's too bad, nothing we can do about it now."
Maybe that has changed now, but lip service is irritating.


By whom? If by me, I'm being misunderstood. Probably my fault for not saying it well, and I'm sorry.

I'm not telling people not to be angry or frustrated. I'm saying there have been posts (not yours, Rebecca) where people have been mean (sometimes outwardly mean, sometimes just passive or sarcastic) and it's hurtful, and I'd like it to stop.

And I saw above where you said you didn't see it as mean. And that brings up a good point. It's not one I can wrap my mind around right now, but it is a good point.

Bottom line, there's no reason to hurt other people's feelings when we'r angry or frustrated. I don't think anyone can argue with that. If I came across as saying people can't be angry or frustrated, or that people's concerns should be dismissed, my bad.

[retro]

I missed where people asked why it was still there?

I certainly hope my question over a new forum wasn't looked at as immediate removal. I don't THINK I ever asked for it to be taken down.


I don't mean to be a serial poster but if my questions and conversation was percieved as a "take it down now" I certainly didn't intend for it to be.

[ADDled]

You're totally right, and I'm very sorry :sob: I'm probably oversensitive about people's feelings because I often find it hard to be nice and not hurt feelings myself.Actually, I think you got a little angry and frustrated up there too. ;) LOL

[Hawthorne]

It's okay, I don't think anyone held it against you. It's just that we are probably all emotional and over-involved. Which goes back to the point this is OURS and we all feel like we need to be heard. I'm not sure that everything felt heard initially, which was exacerbated as time went on. The details kept getting bigger and the people kept looking smaller.


You're totally right, and I'm very sorry :sob: I'm probably oversensitive about people's feelings because I often find it hard to be nice and not hurt feelings myself.

[aleutsi]

I missed where people asked why it was still there?

I certainly hope my question over a new forum wasn't looked at as immediate removal. I don't THINK I ever asked for it to be taken down.


I don't mean to be a serial poster but if my questions and conversation was percieved as a "take it down now" I certainly didn't intend for it to be.

It's how it sounded to me, I'm glad you cleared it up just now, though.

[retro]

I guess by saying I think it is a priority for when they DO decide to revisit things it comes across as me wanting it done right away? I wasn't aware of that. No problem...I'll be clearer in the future.

[Loopy]

I guess it depends on your definition of what being mean is. I personally think Debra was mean to Skrya, I think the admins were mean to Heather for not including her or letting her know she was no longer an admin, I think Anne was mean posting her passive aggressive post about trying, I think Mandi was mean for just cruising on ahead putting up a private/hidden forum, I think it was mean .... gee should I go on? I frankly feel like those who've posted to me have been FAR "meaner" than I have. Sure doesn't change my opinion about what the direction of this community is. to be honest at this point it's becoming so predictable it's comedic.

My God, and we're claiming people aren't being mean? This just makes me cringe!

Frankly, that's just nasty and it makes your complaints, at least to me, less worth of hearing if you're going to state them like that. Why the fuck do you think it's OK to be nasty like that?

For the record, there are lots of people who feel JUST like you do and NOT like I do, and they're being heard, because they're being respectful of the feelings of others.

People are much more important than anything else, in my opinion. If we don't value the feelings of each other, then WHY are we here? We can get parenting advice, alternative medicine advice, whatever anywhere. We're here to be with each other. Let's not be like this.

[Vicky]

Lisa, your feelings are valid and you deserve to be heard. Can you please try to assume positive intent in all this though? We were in crisis mode and decisions had to be made. I have not seen anything cast in stone yet (except for the switch to vb and we voted on that). Heather has not been involved at Yaaps for quite some time now. If I were on the admin side of things at Yaaps I don't know if I would have thought to find her - everything was so chaotic!

You seem to be assuming that everything here has changed overnight. Well, for sure SOME things have, but the community aspect of it has not. We WILL sort these issues out and we WILL vote on them and we WILL get Yaaps back to where it should be. It will take some time and some patience. Those who worked to get us back online in a forum community have been open and transparent every step of the way. Anyone could have stepped up and participated in the back-end of this. If people felt excluded somehow, well, I just don't understand that. I never did.

To be honest, the way things are run around here is of secondary importance to me, anyway. I am just so glad to have the PEOPLE I care about gathered here. The rest can be sorted out as we go.

[aleutsi]

I guess by saying I think it is a priority for when they DO decide to revisit things it comes across as me wanting it done right away? I wasn't aware of that. No problem...I'll be clearer in the future.

Sorry, I guess I missed that. Do you have to be passive aggressive about it, though? Or was that sarcasm? :meh:

[retro]

ahhh my mistake...I was just being honest.

I don't do passive aggressive and my sarcasm is usually more in a playful mode with people who know I'm being sarcastic. I don't use it when people are upset about things.

I'm sorry you thought that was my tone. I guess people don't know me well enough to know that I usually am just that forward about things. It really is that simple for me.

weird double post...please see my further explanation below.

[retro]

ahhh my mistake...I was just being honest.

I don't do passive aggressive and my sarcasm is usually more in a playful mode with people who know I'm being sarcastic. I don't use it when people are upset about things.

I'm sorry you thought that was my tone. I guess people don't know me well enough to know that I usually am just that forward about things. It really is that simple for me.


I just realized that I don't have the bonus of sticking in a smilie when I use the quick reply so my posts probably come across different from how I mean them. I must remember to add to that for those who may take offense to my posts.

[kathy caribe]

I missed where people asked why it was still there?

I certainly hope my question over a new forum wasn't looked at as immediate removal. I don't THINK I ever asked for it to be taken down.


I don't mean to be a serial poster but if my questions and conversation was percieved as a "take it down now" I certainly didn't intend for it to be.

FWIW, that is the impression I got from you last night, which is why I continued to try to explain over and over (but from your responses kept missing the big picture). No, you never asked for it to be taken down, but after having explained WHY it was in existence, continued to hammer away at the fact that it existed (what seemed to be) ad nauseum. It began to seem like you didn't really want to know WHY it was there, you just wanted it gone.

[retro]

and I guess you can now see why I was saying what I was saying...I was thinking the SAME thing on the other end. I was wondering why it was being justified when that was never a practice before. To ME...it was being hammered over and over that it was there because one person wanted it there..

I guess I saw just as much of the "ad nauseum" as others saw from me.

:dunno:

[kathy caribe]

and I guess you can now see why I was saying what I was saying...I was thinking the SAME thing on the other end. I was wondering why it was being justified when that was never a practice before. To ME...it was being hammered over and over that it was there because one person wanted it there..

I guess I saw just as much of the "ad nauseum" as others saw from me.

:dunno:

I'm sorry that is the message you were getting from me. That is so TOTALLY NOT what I was saying.

[sarahs]

Vicky, this is so well said and I agree with every word. You have said so clearly and kindly in one post what I said poorly in several.

And I love your title. I am just peeved I didn't think of it first.

[aleutsi]

ahhh my mistake...I was just being honest.

I don't do passive aggressive and my sarcasm is usually more in a playful mode with people who know I'm being sarcastic. I don't use it when people are upset about things.

I'm sorry you thought that was my tone. I guess people don't know me well enough to know that I usually am just that forward about things. It really is that simple for me.


I just realized that I don't have the bonus of sticking in a smilie when I use the quick reply so my posts probably come across different from how I mean them. I must remember to add to that for those who may take offense to my posts.

Oh good! I usually do try to assume the possitive - especially in this medium, but this time I failed. Sorry. :-)