Did we once discuss those human body exhibits here

[Nancy]

I recall having a conversation about them, somewhere, and there are some exhibits that procurred the bodies illegally, immorally, or something. There is an exhibit coming nearby and I would like to go, how does one find out which companies are good vs bad? Does anyone recall this information or know how I can find out more?

Here is the one coming: http://www.ourbodytheuniversewithin.com/index.html

Anyone know anything?

[bumblebee]

I recall having a conversation about them, somewhere, and there are some exhibits that procurred the bodies illegally, immorally, or something. There is an exhibit coming nearby and I would like to go, how does one find out which companies are good vs bad? Does anyone recall this information or know how I can find out more?

Here is the one coming: http://www.ourbodytheuniversewithin.com/index.html

Anyone know anything?

Some links:

http://www.ypsidixit.com/blog/archives/2007/01/our_body_the_un.html

http://www.metrotimes.com/editorial/story.asp?id=10069

http://www.goanddomichigan.com/stories/011807/mor_ourbody001.shtml

I don't know if you want/care to hear my thoughts on exhibits like these, so I wil bite my tongue (fingers)...but the idea of bodies acquired and displayed without explicit consent makes me ill. :angry:

[Nancy]

That is my question though, I remember discussing that some of the exhibits DID have consent, and others did not. I don't want to go if there were illegal/immoral actions.

[bumblebee]

That is my question though, I remember discussing that some of the exhibits DID have consent, and others did not. I don't want to go if there were illegal/immoral actions.

How the bodies were acquired (from the articles):

'When questioned where the bodies come from, Dr. Hofman says it's a legitimate institute or foundation in China whose name he has forgotten. Mark Horwin, general counsel for the Universe Within Touring Company, and Todd Slisher, the Detroit Science Center's vice president of programs, say the institution prefers not to be disclosed out of respect for the individuals whose bodies are displayed. But published reports have indicated the Beijing-based company's name is Life Sciences Project.

"Much ado about nothing has been made," says Dr. Hofman. "They are not bodies that have been stolen, not the bodies of someone murdered. They are legally acquired bodies in China. There has to be provenance. This is no different in a piece of art work."

More to the point, though, is the question of what exactly "legally acquired" means in China — because it doesn't necessarily mean donor consent, according to some reporters who've tried to follow the money and bodies. For example, in a National Geographic News article about Bodies: The Exhibition, John Roach reports that Premier Exhibitions, Bodies' producer, obtained their bodies and parts from China's Dalian Medical University of Plastination Laboratories. They are "unclaimed or unidentified individuals from China. As such, neither the deceased nor their families consented to the use of the corpses in the exhibit.'



'"Slightly more ambiguous is the explanation that the specimens were obtained by a Chinese foundation "in a manner consistent with the laws of China." No one associated with the exhibit was at the press preview event to elaborate on that point. The written material goes on to say the specimens were donated through medical schools and other research facilities for research and educational purposes.'

"Consistent with the laws of China" and the overall ambiguity both raise a red flag for me, personally, but I also have an ethical problem with any corpses that were rightfully donated to science being used as spectacle or entertainment, even if it's "educational." That's what I meant in my first post since these exhibits just rub me the wrong way and I don't think any of the bodies were acquired with explicit consent to be manipulated and shown in such a manner even if they were donated though proper avenues.

[Tracy]

That is my question though, I remember discussing that some of the exhibits DID have consent, and others did not. I don't want to go if there were illegal/immoral actions.


I watched some news show special on this and even the company who stated they had gotten all of their bodies from people who had donated them, had actually gotten some bodies from the same company selling the bodies of people who had been prisoners in China and had been executed.

I already had my thoughts on these displays based on nothing more than feeling a repulsion to bodies being displayed for entertainment, but after hearing about how the body's are acquired, it made me feel pretty unsure about those displays on a different level as well.

[victoria]

I watched some news show special on this and even the company who stated they had gotten all of their bodies from people who had donated them, had actually gotten some bodies from the same company selling the bodies of people who had been prisoners in China and had been executed.

I already had my thoughts on these displays based on nothing more than feeling a repulsion to bodies being displayed for entertainment, but after hearing about how the body's are acquired, it made me feel pretty unsure about those displays on a different level as well.

This. The Bodies Revealed exhibit is coming (may be already here, I don't know for sure) to Union Station in Kansas City. What the KC Star has said is that the Bodies Revealed exhibit is showing bodies of people who consented, but that same company runs another show called Bodies... the Exhibition, and that show uses "unclaimed bodies" from China.

aw hell, here's the link for more and stuff about the St. Louis exhibit.
http://www.kansascity.com/news/local/story/495137.html

It is not something I want to see. I went on an honors student "field trip" sort of thing to the cadaver lab at my university and almost fainted. And I feel very sure that the bodies there were donated knowingly and for a very good cause. I don't feel that same way about these traveling exhibits... it just seems disrespectful to the people, and their bodies.

also, for fun, a link to the Union Station KC site with a statement about the media coverage:
http://www.unionstation.org/bodies/index.cfm

[stickcow]

Bodyworlds is the one I went to, it's the original, and they have the consent of everyone they display.

In fact, you have to apply to ive them your body. I found this out when a friend of mine told me they accepted her brain when she dies.

[lunita]

Bodies Revealed is in my town now, and at least one news article I read stated that the cadavers were from China and the people hadn't consented. Now I'm confused. I think maybe they donated their bodies to the medical university but did not consent to actually being displayed publicly?

Here is a news article from the local paper (but I think the article I read first was from another source.)
http://www.sacbee.com/art/story/546641.html

[Ali]

Bodies Revealed

Bodyworlds

Thank you for bringing this up! I was actually going to post about this today, lol.

Bodies, The Exhibition ( http://www.carnegiesciencecenter.org/bodies/tickets.htm ) is going to be in Pittsburgh through May and some people have thought about attending it, and others were questioning the morals of it and how the bodies were obtained. Supposedly there is even a very pregnant women in one of the displays.

I don't see it as going for entertainment, more for education, and IMO it would be fascinating. I wonder just how many of these there are, and which side this one falls on obtaining bodies?

[Vicky]

I recall having a conversation about them, somewhere, and there are some exhibits that procurred the bodies illegally, immorally, or something. There is an exhibit coming nearby and I would like to go, how does one find out which companies are good vs bad? Does anyone recall this information or know how I can find out more?

Here is the one coming: http://www.ourbodytheuniversewithin.com/index.html

Anyone know anything?

Alex and I are really fascinated by this process. She REALLY wants her body donated to be plastinated when she dies. We read about it in Stiff by Mary Roach.

To my mind, I see it as predominantly educational. Although some may be entertained by it, I think they will come away educated.

I also don't see the sacredness of the human body after we die. The part that was the PERSON is gone. The body is a vehicle. How is embalming a body and displaying it in a coffin really much different, except for the audience?

Whether they gave permission for their bodies to be displayed in a museum is immaterial to me because I doubt that the people whose bodies they are are in a realm where it matters one whit to them. If their familes were denied possession of their bodies after death to mourn them, then that would be a different story. Living people have their traditions and rituals surrounding death, and I respect that. If these were truly unclaimed bodies, then they are providing an educational service to the world after their death.

[Nancy]

Alex and I are really fascinated by this process. She REALLY wants her body donated to be plastinated when she dies. We read about it in Stiff by Mary Roach.

To my mind, I see it as predominantly educational. Although some may be entertained by it, I think they will come away educated.

I also don't see the sacredness of the human body after we die. The part that was the PERSON is gone. The body is a vehicle. How is embalming a body and displaying it in a coffin really much different, except for the audience?

Whether they gave permission for their bodies to be displayed in a museum is immaterial to me because I doubt that the people whose bodies they are are in a realm where it matters one whit to them. If their familes were denied possession of their bodies after death to mourn them, then that would be a different story. Living people have their traditions and rituals surrounding death, and I respect that. If these were truly unclaimed bodies, then they are providing an educational service to the world after their death.

I agree with you Vicky, and this is where I am as well. I respect that others would not be interested in viewing this, just as others would no doubt not have completed the human anatomy course I took for a full year with a cadaver. I, however, consider it a valueable part of my education and I often remember with gratitude the person who donated his body for my study.

All in all I consider this educational and not entertainment. I would like to find out if this particular exhibit did anything illegal or unethical, reports are honestly fuzzy due to the judgment that many people put on the actual exhibit. For me this isn't about whether or not exhibiting bodies is unethical, but only how they obtained the bodies.

[Ali]

For me this isn't about whether or not exhibiting bodies is unethical, but only how they obtained the bodies.

The one that is going to be in Pittsburgh has two links from the Catholic Diocese of Pittsburgh about the exhibition http://www.carnegiesciencecenter.org/bodies/about.htm

Maybe that will help in your decision.

[jump4joy]

We saw Bodyworlds this last year and thought it was excellent. Not only are the bodies ethically obtained, but the entire exhibit was very interesting with so much information you really couldn't take it in in 2 - 3 hours. I went twice and got a lot out of it. They didn't just have the bodies, but also had all kinds of body parts (bones, organs, etc.) in various methods of display (for instance, they had a liver where just the blood vessels are showing, and they had cross-sections of lungs and other organs). The anti-smoking part of it was very powerful, and they had a place to put your last package of cigarettes and make a vow not to smoke.

I found the originator's comments on the audio tour about his intentions and methods to be interesting as well. We thought it was really cool!

[gfrach]

I agree that our bodies are vessels (I refer to mine as Tupperware from time to time) but I disagree that how the bodies are obtained is immaterial. And I don't see it as educational as much as I see it as just more voyeurism and greed. There are plenty of other ways to learn about how the human body works.

Just my opinion.

[lunita]

I would love to see Bodyworlds. We decided to skip Bodies Revealed because it seemed like a cheap imitation of Bodyworlds, with questionable bioethics surrounding it.

[kokoro]

I hope they were ethically obtained. 'Consistent with chinese law' leaves room for bodies that were not ethically obtained, I"m afraid. I saw a 48 hours-type show about people buying organs from China and they would *execute* prisoners and harvest their organs and sell them to Americans! beyond disgusting and unethical! So, I just hope that type of thing didn't happen with this exhibit.

[bumblebee]

I agree that our bodies are vessels (I refer to mine as Tupperware from time to time) but I disagree that how the bodies are obtained is immaterial. And I don't see it as educational as much as I see it as just more voyeurism and greed. There are plenty of other ways to learn about how the human body works.

Just my opinion.

ITA. I am not religious or even spiritual, but I think it matters immensely how the bodies were obtained, especially since people are profiting from them. (But my opinion is probably already fairly obvious from my other replies to this thread!)

I think that I would be fine with these exhibits (though wholly uninterested in seeing them for myself) if I knew that the individuals had explicitly given their bodies away knowing that they would be plasticized and displayed. Otherwise, if there's any ambiguity at all in how the bodies were obtained, it seems completely unethical and really disturbing to me. I don't know why it bothers me so much; it just does.

[Annamarie]

You pretty much said everything I was thinking.

[retro]

Kind of but not really the same thing. Has anyone seen the advertisements on that discovery channel special on the human body? I think it starts on Sunday. I am totally intrigued!

[Anne]

Alex and I are really fascinated by this process. She REALLY wants her body donated to be plastinated when she dies. We read about it in Stiff by Mary Roach.

To my mind, I see it as predominantly educational. Although some may be entertained by it, I think they will come away educated.

I also don't see the sacredness of the human body after we die. The part that was the PERSON is gone. The body is a vehicle. How is embalming a body and displaying it in a coffin really much different, except for the audience?

Whether they gave permission for their bodies to be displayed in a museum is immaterial to me because I doubt that the people whose bodies they are are in a realm where it matters one whit to them. If their familes were denied possession of their bodies after death to mourn them, then that would be a different story. Living people have their traditions and rituals surrounding death, and I respect that. If these were truly unclaimed bodies, then they are providing an educational service to the world after their death.

I'm with you here, Vicky. I took Madeleine to see The Body Exhibit about a year ago when she was 6 because she is absolutely fascinated by anything to do with the human body. It was one of the most interesting exhibits I've ever seen. A friend of mine who is trained as an ultrasound tech said it was really interesting to actually see some of the parts she'd only ever viewed via ultrasound.

For me, I'd compare it to seeing mummies in the British Museum (or the ones in a local curiosity shop) or something like that. Last night we were watching a program about the Vikings. They were showing hundreds of unearthed skulls and bones that they were studying. I don't see an exhibit like this as much different from displaying excavated bones.

[MorgnsGrl]

I agree with you Vicky, and this is where I am as well. I respect that others would not be interested in viewing this, just as others would no doubt not have completed the human anatomy course I took for a full year with a cadaver. I, however, consider it a valueable part of my education and I often remember with gratitude the person who donated his body for my study.

All in all I consider this educational and not entertainment. I would like to find out if this particular exhibit did anything illegal or unethical, reports are honestly fuzzy due to the judgment that many people put on the actual exhibit. For me this isn't about whether or not exhibiting bodies is unethical, but only how they obtained the bodies.

And I agree with you, Nancy. :) I wouldn't consider it entertainment because honestly I think it would be disturbing to see, and I suspect it would upset me, but I *would* consider it educational and I think I would learn a lot if I could bring myself to view the exhibit.

I wouldn't feel comfortable viewing an exhibit like this if there were questions about the ways the bodies were obtained. If the original owners of the bodies consented, then I don't feel it's unethical to exhibit them.

[Hobbes]

We saw Bodyworlds this last year and thought it was excellent. Not only are the bodies ethically obtained, but the entire exhibit was very interesting with so much information you really couldn't take it in in 2 - 3 hours. I went twice and got a lot out of it. They didn't just have the bodies, but also had all kinds of body parts (bones, organs, etc.) in various methods of display (for instance, they had a liver where just the blood vessels are showing, and they had cross-sections of lungs and other organs). The anti-smoking part of it was very powerful, and they had a place to put your last package of cigarettes and make a vow not to smoke.

I found the originator's comments on the audio tour about his intentions and methods to be interesting as well. We thought it was really cool!
We saw Bodyworlds when we lived in Germany.

It was fascinating and very educational. I saw nothing ethically wrong (and still don't) about displaying these, no more so than museums showing stuffed animals or human remains, or using cadavers in university anatomy classes, etc.

I do find something wrong with using bodies without consent. Bodyworlds (which is the original) uses only bodies donated with consent. I don't think I'd go to a show that got their bodies from China. Just too many questions and not enough answers.

But Bodyworlds. I'd go again.