School, learning disabilities and my anger

[Hobbes]

I am so angry, confused and frustrated I keep wanting to cry.

So, if you remember from the last week or so about the learning specialist who called the last day of school... well, the whole story is here (http://www.yaaps.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3669).

I've done a lot of research (retention rarely works) and talking to others (here, other parents, a learning specialist) and thought.

My gut, my heart and my head tells me retention is the wrong answer.

But we had a meeting today with the two learning specialists at the school, both preschool teachers, the first grade teacher and the head of lower school.

The teachers, including the preschool teachers and learning specialist (first grade teacher mainly listened), felt that retention was warranted, but I was unconvinced.

But DH wants to keep an open mind, and we aren't going to make the decision until later this summer after we tutor and work with Emma some more.

The thing is they didn't tell us anything new in my mind. She's behind in reading and writing, language to a lesser extent. One of the preschool teachers was talking about how the other kids know and are 'concerned' about Emma being behind the class (they are sweet and considerate about it, but they know Emma can't keep up with them in writing).

But what gets me is that EVERYTHING else seems to now be a bigger issue than before. We've always been told (FOUR DIFFERENT MEETINGS THIS SEMESTER ALONE DAMN IT) she is at or above level in every thing but her language/reading/writing. But suddently her 'big emotions' (she gets easily happy but can get cry for a small slight to her feelings) means "emotional immaturity' when it just meant "big emotions" before. I'm sitting here saying wait... isn't X kid always throwing tantrums? Isn't Y kid getting kicked out of music class all the time because he disrupts it? I KNOW these kids, I see them a lot, almost daily for two of them in play dates, sleepovers and more. Emma's 'big emotions' aren't emotional immaturity (in relation to these other kids).

But now DH is saying he thinks she is immature and we should consider retention.

Now, because she struggles with reading EVERYTHING else is thrown into question.

DAMNIT I understand she needs help. I KNOW this will take work and we'll have to focus for Emma. I'm not denying that. But lets put it in perspective F$%^&*(. She's been THRIVING this year with this grade. Yes, she's struggling with writing and reading, but lets not make it suddenly everything in question when just a month ago by everyone's account she was THRIVING. F*&^%.

I'm angry at DH, I'm frustrated, I'm crying.


Oh, btw, I'll post more about our Hogwarts school later, but one of her tasks was to learn as much about dolphins as she could (we swam with dolphins!) and put it in her journal, including draw one and label it.

She drew it, and labeled it. WITHOUT any help from me, any coaxing or any sounding out. THis is what she wrote:

FIN
FAS (face)
DOLFIN
BLOWHOL
TAL (tail)

Then we had her write out foods that Mexicans eat (for Muggle Studies) and this is what she wrote (without help or coaxing)... oh and she added the title "MUGEL" because she knew it was for Muggle Studies!

BURITO
SUP (soup)
KASADEYA (quesadilla)
HOT PEPER
TOCO (taco)


That's a just-turned-6-year-old kindergartener who couldn't do that a month ago.

THIS IS THAT FAR BEHIND?!?!?!? Be honest, is this less than should be expected?

sigh... I need to relax......

Ok, I'm relaxed.

So, they did profusely apologize for bringing this up at such a late date. And the learning specialist I respect and like enough that this is bothering me (if I didn't respect or like her, I'd dismiss this suggestion out of hand and it wouldn't weigh on me).

So, I've ordered books (thanks for the suggestions), I'm putting together a curriculum (20 minutes a day?) for language and reading. I've committed to making this my first job. I'm even thinking of taking courses on preschool education and learning differences (anyone have an online course they could suggest).

Whatever the decision, I will do whatever it takes to make Emma's life as beautiful as she deserves.

[mowse]

Well, it's hard to judge because we all think our children are terrific and wonderful and brilliant. :) And they are! They all have unique and wonderful attirbutes. They all learn at different paces, too.

I have had three children go through kindie and one about to enter kindie. The three that have gone through, mind you this was all public school, were doing far more than Emma. Alex has aspergers and was very emotionally immature and left kindie a strong reader. Leelee knew how to read basic words before she went but she turned 6 just after school started. Ben went in to kindie with language delays and in speech therapy. He had barely learned his colors before school started and didn't know any letters or numbers. He left kindie reading independently. Kari will be 5 after school starts, but is doing the inventive spelling and sounding out words.

But this is where *my* kids are. I don't know if I am a good judge to say whether or not Emma is behind. If she were my kid, and I had still had the others, I would be freaked out and definitely retaining...but that's based on my previous experiences. Make sense?

Do you ahve a list of what they would like the kids to be able to do by the end of kindie? Do an inventory with Emma to see where she's really at. Is she behind enough in some areas that you *won't* be able to catch up by the end of summer? Is she behind in at least half the areas? a quarter?

Which do you think will be more damaging to her self-esteem? Falling behind the class and struggling to catch up? Or watching her friends move ahead but being ahead of the kids she's with now?

Have you had her tested for learning disabilities? Maybe there is something more going on that if you had a name for it, you might be able to develop more specific strategies to help her out?

I know it's so hard when it's your baby they are talking about. Alex's fourth grade teachers suggested retaining him to help wtih his "immaturity" and they would NOT listen that another year wasn't going to help him when it was related to a disability and not him just being immature. He's always going to lag behind socially and, according to research, it should catch up by the time he's 18 or so LOL

It's important to be your child's advocate, but sometimes you also have to step back and look at things from a different angle. Maybe even talk to some PS kindie teachers to see their perspective.

[MorgnsGrl]

{{{Trey}}}

I don't think your examples make her seem behind at all, honestly. I have no experience with kids being held back (my DS was only in 1st grade this year) and I don't have any advice. I wish I did. I'm sending good thoughts that you guys can come up with the solution that is best for Emma as well as one you personally are comfortable with! :hugging:

[nooner]

that for the words he doesn't know. You know best and I think you should go that way. It's hard when throughout school you hear one story that isn't too bad (behind in reading) and then it morphs to many more problems and issues. She only finished Kindergarten! It sounds like you were on top of it and she would have to catch up a bit, but you would help her during the summer and she would have all of first grade to improve.

Maturity and emotions continue with both boys and girls in first grade too. My son just finished first grade and has a hard time following directions, sitting still and not bugging others. He is smart and should not be held back so we are working on his work habits. It will get better as he matures.

I'm so sorry you are going through this. Go the way YOU think best. She's only going into first grade and lots will change. I think her spelling is wonderful. It looks like normal kindergarten spelling to me.

How was your trip to Mexico? I hope you all had fun and this didn't hang over you too much while you were gone.

Kay - mom to DS 10 and DS 7

[candeo]

(((Trey))) I think it's mind-boggling that the skill level you describe is considered "behind." I'm shaking my head in disbelief here. Many, many of the kindergarteners in the part of the world I live in are not writing and spelling like that. I'm sure that by the big-city standards we are pathetically backwards here in the sticks, but I don't for a second believe that those standards are right and ours are wrong. She's six.years.old.

In all your writing on this you haven't written one thing that makes me think that holding her back might be a good idea. You have made me think that another school might be a good idea, though. One that takes a much more individual view of the child and has a much lighter emphasis on early academics.

I'm no Waldorf proponent ordinarily, but if Waldorf doesn't seem like an insane, brain-washing cult kind of place to you, you might take a peek. They have a much slower view of childhood all around, including academics.

I'm so sorry this is happening and that you're having the conflict with your DH, too.

[lunita]

She has TERRIFIC phonemic awareness. She knows the sounds the letters make and makes very logical invented spellings for the words. Is she having difficulty with the act of forming the letters? Does she use lowercase letters some, or mostly uppercase?

I suspect that at our school she'd be a bit below below the middle, but not so far behind that retention would be suggested.

Are you interested i curriculum ideas/suggestions?

oh, and even if you do't do a full evaluation right now, maybe you'd get some food for thought from a letsgolearn.com online reading assessment. Amanda did this a few years back (when I wanted a reality check about where she was) and it was pretty engaging and gave a good amount of info about reading strengths and weaknesses.

[Jewel2]

Since you are going private, you have some choices. The other reason I would consider changing is that you (your family) are already having some real conflict at the school and she's just finished kindergarten. And they handled this very badly, if she was considered fine a few mos ago and now she needs to repeat. She is just starting her formal education, and it seems like there is a lot of conflict already -- I'm betting you can find a better fit. I think if you retain her, you'll have a lot of doubts about it, and honestly, I think in a small school it is a REAL social concern. Everyone will know she has been retained, and if her classmates are already thinking she's behing -- seriously, it just doesn't sound like a good dynamic to me. I'd get an outside opinion (I know of some good people in the East Bay, but you probably know of some in SF already) and if she really needs to be retained, I'd still consider changing schools -- a fresh start where she is not the "behind" kid (and I think that's a bit worrisome if they told you all the kids are concerned about her. First of all, what does the concern of another 5 year old have to to do with it? And second of all, the school should be dealing with that. My DD1's first grade teacher always tell the kids that reading and writing are like losing teeth. Some lose teeth early and some lose later, but it happens for everyone). And if you push to promote her, the school will probably be in disagreement with you and that won't be a good dynamic!

I already posted my thoughts on her ability based on what you've said, and I don't think she's behind such that she needs to be retained. Lots of the first graders (my DD2 just finished first grade) spell like that. Now we are at a public school, but it is a public school with a lot of highly-educated parents who are pretty involved in their kids educations (lots of college professors, PhD candidates, doctors) who really place a premium on traditional academic success and they are not concerned about a kindergartener spelling "TACO" as "TOCO". First grade is full of invented spelling!

And the final reason I'd have her evaluated outside the school is this. If she does have a learning disability, as opposed to some sort of delay that requires retention (and I'm not sure what that would be), she needs some focused intervention, not just another round of the same kindergarten class. Meaning, even if she DOES have some special needs (and I'm not convinced her progress so far indicates that), retention may not be what is best to address that.

Good luck!


I am so angry, confused and frustrated I keep wanting to cry.

So, if you remember from the last week or so about the learning specialist who called the last day of school... well, the whole story is here (http://www.yaaps.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3669).

I've done a lot of research (retention rarely works) and talking to others (here, other parents, a learning specialist) and thought.

My gut, my heart and my head tells me retention is the wrong answer.

But we had a meeting today with the two learning specialists at the school, both preschool teachers, the first grade teacher and the head of lower school.

The teachers, including the preschool teachers and learning specialist (first grade teacher mainly listened), felt that retention was warranted, but I was unconvinced.

But DH wants to keep an open mind, and we aren't going to make the decision until later this summer after we tutor and work with Emma some more.

The thing is they didn't tell us anything new in my mind. She's behind in reading and writing, language to a lesser extent. One of the preschool teachers was talking about how the other kids know and are 'concerned' about Emma being behind the class (they are sweet and considerate about it, but they know Emma can't keep up with them in writing).

But what gets me is that EVERYTHING else seems to now be a bigger issue than before. We've always been told (FOUR DIFFERENT MEETINGS THIS SEMESTER ALONE DAMN IT) she is at or above level in every thing but her language/reading/writing. But suddently her 'big emotions' (she gets easily happy but can get cry for a small slight to her feelings) means "emotional immaturity' when it just meant "big emotions" before. I'm sitting here saying wait... isn't X kid always throwing tantrums? Isn't Y kid getting kicked out of music class all the time because he disrupts it? I KNOW these kids, I see them a lot, almost daily for two of them in play dates, sleepovers and more. Emma's 'big emotions' aren't emotional immaturity (in relation to these other kids).

But now DH is saying he thinks she is immature and we should consider retention.

Now, because she struggles with reading EVERYTHING else is thrown into question.

DAMNIT I understand she needs help. I KNOW this will take work and we'll have to focus for Emma. I'm not denying that. But lets put it in perspective F$%^&*(. She's been THRIVING this year with this grade. Yes, she's struggling with writing and reading, but lets not make it suddenly everything in question when just a month ago by everyone's account she was THRIVING. F*&^%.

I'm angry at DH, I'm frustrated, I'm crying.


Oh, btw, I'll post more about our Hogwarts school later, but one of her tasks was to learn as much about dolphins as she could (we swam with dolphins!) and put it in her journal, including draw one and label it.

She drew it, and labeled it. WITHOUT any help from me, any coaxing or any sounding out. THis is what she wrote:

FIN
FAS (face)
DOLFIN
BLOWHOL
TAL (tail)

Then we had her write out foods that Mexicans eat (for Muggle Studies) and this is what she wrote (without help or coaxing)... oh and she added the title "MUGEL" because she knew it was for Muggle Studies!

BURITO
SUP (soup)
KASADEYA (quesadilla)
HOT PEPER
TOCO (taco)


That's a just-turned-6-year-old kindergartener who couldn't do that a month ago.

THIS IS THAT FAR BEHIND?!?!?!? Be honest, is this less than should be expected?

sigh... I need to relax......

Ok, I'm relaxed.

So, they did profusely apologize for bringing this up at such a late date. And the learning specialist I respect and like enough that this is bothering me (if I didn't respect or like her, I'd dismiss this suggestion out of hand and it wouldn't weigh on me).

So, I've ordered books (thanks for the suggestions), I'm putting together a curriculum (20 minutes a day?) for language and reading. I've committed to making this my first job. I'm even thinking of taking courses on preschool education and learning differences (anyone have an online course they could suggest).

Whatever the decision, I will do whatever it takes to make Emma's life as beautiful as she deserves.

[Hawthorne]

I don't have a lot of input except to say that Solomon and Emma are about the same age (I'm not sure when Emma's birthday is, Solomon's is May4) and he is not capable of writing any words yet other than his name. He writes individual letters and asks me if it says anything and he is doing early reading now (yay!). So, if she is behind, Solomon is as well, but his Montessori teacher was perfectly fine with where he is.

And {{{hugs}}} too, because I KNOW how hard this is, to be told that something is going on with your child.

[davidah]

Have you done a comprehensive vision screening with a vision therapist optometrist?

If she has very good awareness of phonemes (which she does), but struggles with the act of reading, then maybe it's vision problems? Go to www.covd.org and find a Dr. near you. You'll probably have to pay out of pocket for the screening. A regular eye Dr. is not sufficient.

This has done wonders for a friend of DD's. It's at least worth ruling out.

Good Luck! Emma sounds like a terrific kid.

Davidah

[jerzymama]

I'm sorry Trey - but these people are fucking nuts.

There is no way that Emma is *behind* for just-finished-Kindergartner-normal-kid. DD - who was identified as gifted in 3rd grade - was emphatically not really reading, nor spelling - hell, she could barely hold a pencil properly. (Actually she couldn't hold a pencil at the beginning of K - but whatever).
Up until 3rd grade, no one was doing cartwheels over DD's academics.
What we mostly heard from teachers and other adults was she was bright, very expressive and creative. Her reading definately started picking up in second grade - but it was still *early* reading.

I agree with Jewels and Davidah - you should take her and have a very extensive evaluation done for LD or vision issues or whatever else can be evaluated for and let that be your guide.

I also agree that you should changie schools - it sounds like the staff has already made up their minds about Emma and it's likely that they will view her through that filter from here on out. I'm sure you have a huge emotional investment in this particular school; but sometimes things just aren't a good fit - it's no one's fault really, just that there is a disconnect; it happens. {{{{{{{T & G & E}}}}}}}} I'm sorry you're dealing with this now - the school really should've given you the head's up months ago - so that you're not scrambling around *now* during summer vacation.

[Brenda]

<snip>
Oh, btw, I'll post more about our Hogwarts school later, but one of her tasks was to learn as much about dolphins as she could (we swam with dolphins!) and put it in her journal, including draw one and label it.

She drew it, and labeled it. WITHOUT any help from me, any coaxing or any sounding out. THis is what she wrote:

FIN
FAS (face)
DOLFIN
BLOWHOL
TAL (tail)

Then we had her write out foods that Mexicans eat (for Muggle Studies) and this is what she wrote (without help or coaxing)... oh and she added the title "MUGEL" because she knew it was for Muggle Studies!

BURITO
SUP (soup)
KASADEYA (quesadilla)
HOT PEPER
TOCO (taco)


That's a just-turned-6-year-old kindergartener who couldn't do that a month ago.

THIS IS THAT FAR BEHIND?!?!?!? Be honest, is this less than should be expected?



Let me preface by saying that I am coming at this from a homeschooling perspective. I don't have to stick to a school's time line for learning.

Emma just turned six? So she is less than six months older than my Vincent. There is No Freaking Way that Vincent could even begin to have written that. He is still learning to write his name without the V being upside down and he forgets 3 middle letters half the time. We have just, just begun teaching him reading. I mean just - we are on lesson 3 in Teach Your Child to Read in 100 Easy Lessons with him. I don't expect him to be a proficient reader for at least a year or two.

Isabella never could have written that at Emma's age. She didn't really get reading until she was about 8, about 6 months ago. She has struggled with it tremendously, but she is pretty close to reading at grade level now finally. Once it started to click, she clicked hard. She still does mostly creative spelling and I don't care. I know that in the next year or so, as she reads more, she'll become more conventional and less creative. Abigail was my earliest reader, and at age 6 she was probably doing what Emma is now. Then by the middle of her first grade year, she was reading at a third or fourth grade level. We practiced for a long while, she did the sounding out and halting reading, and then one day ZOOOOM she got it and took off flying.

So I guess my long winded answer is I cannot believe that Emma is considered worth of retention when I look at the sample that you just gave. Maybe I have the luxury of increased patience with my kids because of homeschooling, but I cannot fathom retaining her from what you have posted.

It sounds like the school has a very closed mind about this. They have determined that Emma is delayed and I suspect even if you advance her, she will be seen through that filter. I would personally be looking for a different school for her.

[Holly]

there has been absolutely no talk of holding her back. I have no idea where she falls in comparison to other kids in her class but her teacher didn't seem to have any concerns.

FWIW, we had my son in private Montessori from preK-2nd grade. Our battles with his teachers began in K and just escalated each year until we really had no choice but to pull him. You may want to explore your other options as I found that by mid 2nd grade, we were all battle weary (esp my son).

[Sherri]

That doesn't look like dyslexia to me. You may or may not want to do a full reading evaluation, but I tend to think that her phonemic awareness is too good--way too good--to indicate a serious reading problem. Daniel is 7 1/2 and would not be able to do that. He does really struggle with reading, but I think that his difficulties are more borderline.

I think that the social issues they mention are a bit...eh, just not that big a deal. I would hold strong on not holding back. The research is against it overall (i.e. kids who are held back do not do better than those who are socially promoted, they do worse), and I really don't get why one child struggling a bit more than the others should be a big deal in a Montessori environment. I think it can make sense to hold a child back if they seem more like a child in the younger grade in every way--at least physically, academically, and socially. I don't think that a child with learning or social issues that are in specific areas rather than global lack of maturity should be held back.

I'm so sorry you are dealing with this.

Sherri

[gfrach]

Huge hugs, Trey! I totally agree that objective evaluation may be helpful for you. I would absolutely consider another school because this one seems to really have an attitude about Emma that, IMO, is completely unwarranted. Just because she doesn't fit *their* mold doesn't mean she's delayed or that she should be retained. And, I want to to *BS* about what they said about the other kids worrying about Emma not keeping up with them--that's pure manipulation on their part and is really a low blow, IMO. If they were a decent school and it did actually appear that the other kids are noticing and worried that Emma isn't on their level then they would be really making an effort to show the kids that all kids don't progress at the same levels. (And, IMO, Emma is fully at a *COMPLETELY* normal place for her age. COMPLETELY!!!)

Your Hogwarts stuff sounds fun and your trip sounds wonderful!

Hugs!

[anna v]

My dev paed will only consider retention if it is part of a sensible plan for remediation. So just repeating a kid without identifying why you are doing it (that would be identifying an LD IMO) and how it is to be remediated and MOST IMPORTANTLY why the retention will remediate this and how come the services cannot be delivered in the age appropriate classroom.

He generally does not consider social immaturity to be enough of a reason BTW.

And her phonemic awareness and writing ability look just fine to me.

[mirage1]

Oh Trey, I'm so frustrated for you. Your girl sounds wonderful and while I am far from an expert, just the existence of "mugel" seems to me to point to someone who's got her letters all in order, you know?

I am sorry G. doesn't see it quite the same way, but I can understand his perspective too...sometimes you DO have to trust the experts. I just don't think this is that time.

{{{{{{T and family}}}}}}

[jump4joy]

I'm sorry but that is just so WRONG. She seems perfectly on par with where she should be, your school's expectations sound very skewed to me. I would personally be looking at your other educational options - other schools, homeschooling (even for a year or two), everything that's available to you. This just does not sound like a good environment, for Emma or for you.

[~PQ]

I am so angry, confused and frustrated I keep wanting to cry.

So, if you remember from the last week or so about the learning specialist who called the last day of school... well, the whole story is here (http://www.yaaps.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3669).

I've done a lot of research (retention rarely works) and talking to others (here, other parents, a learning specialist) and thought.

My gut, my heart and my head tells me retention is the wrong answer.

But we had a meeting today with the two learning specialists at the school, both preschool teachers, the first grade teacher and the head of lower school.

The teachers, including the preschool teachers and learning specialist (first grade teacher mainly listened), felt that retention was warranted, but I was unconvinced.

But DH wants to keep an open mind, and we aren't going to make the decision until later this summer after we tutor and work with Emma some more.

The thing is they didn't tell us anything new in my mind. She's behind in reading and writing, language to a lesser extent. One of the preschool teachers was talking about how the other kids know and are 'concerned' about Emma being behind the class (they are sweet and considerate about it, but they know Emma can't keep up with them in writing).

But what gets me is that EVERYTHING else seems to now be a bigger issue than before. We've always been told (FOUR DIFFERENT MEETINGS THIS SEMESTER ALONE DAMN IT) she is at or above level in every thing but her language/reading/writing. But suddently her 'big emotions' (she gets easily happy but can get cry for a small slight to her feelings) means "emotional immaturity' when it just meant "big emotions" before. I'm sitting here saying wait... isn't X kid always throwing tantrums? Isn't Y kid getting kicked out of music class all the time because he disrupts it? I KNOW these kids, I see them a lot, almost daily for two of them in play dates, sleepovers and more. Emma's 'big emotions' aren't emotional immaturity (in relation to these other kids).

But now DH is saying he thinks she is immature and we should consider retention.

Now, because she struggles with reading EVERYTHING else is thrown into question.

DAMNIT I understand she needs help. I KNOW this will take work and we'll have to focus for Emma. I'm not denying that. But lets put it in perspective F$%^&*(. She's been THRIVING this year with this grade. Yes, she's struggling with writing and reading, but lets not make it suddenly everything in question when just a month ago by everyone's account she was THRIVING. F*&^%.

I'm angry at DH, I'm frustrated, I'm crying.


Oh, btw, I'll post more about our Hogwarts school later, but one of her tasks was to learn as much about dolphins as she could (we swam with dolphins!) and put it in her journal, including draw one and label it.

She drew it, and labeled it. WITHOUT any help from me, any coaxing or any sounding out. THis is what she wrote:

FIN
FAS (face)
DOLFIN
BLOWHOL
TAL (tail)

Then we had her write out foods that Mexicans eat (for Muggle Studies) and this is what she wrote (without help or coaxing)... oh and she added the title "MUGEL" because she knew it was for Muggle Studies!

BURITO
SUP (soup)
KASADEYA (quesadilla)
HOT PEPER
TOCO (taco)


That's a just-turned-6-year-old kindergartener who couldn't do that a month ago.

THIS IS THAT FAR BEHIND?!?!?!? Be honest, is this less than should be expected?

sigh... I need to relax......

Ok, I'm relaxed.

So, they did profusely apologize for bringing this up at such a late date. And the learning specialist I respect and like enough that this is bothering me (if I didn't respect or like her, I'd dismiss this suggestion out of hand and it wouldn't weigh on me).

So, I've ordered books (thanks for the suggestions), I'm putting together a curriculum (20 minutes a day?) for language and reading. I've committed to making this my first job. I'm even thinking of taking courses on preschool education and learning differences (anyone have an online course they could suggest).

Whatever the decision, I will do whatever it takes to make Emma's life as beautiful as she deserves.


Thats CRAP Trey. I have an academically GIFTED child, one WITHOUT any learning disorders or behavioral disabilities, one who has been tested extensively and has consistently always tested well above age/grade level- she was reading before kindy and ya know what, she spelled phonetically EXACTLY the way you exampled Emma as spelling in kindy and even first grade. She's a straight A student who is always the teachers pet and ALWAYS at the top of her class, I know I just sound braggy here but my point is what you post is nothing less than what she was doing at that age!! Further, I have a very sweet, capable, smart little girl who just finished 1st grade with glowing reviews and she STILL spells things phonetically like you exampled. The simpler, single syllable words she would probably get correct NOW, but that's because she has a teacher who has gradually introduced them. The more complex words she would still spell in a similar way.

PLEASE, do yourself a favor and check out other schools- even the *public* school. Nothing you have posted recently gives me ANY reason to think Emma would benefit from repeating kindy. Granted, we're only seeing a snapshot here but I think that maybe the issue is you are working with a private school that has unreasonable age-appropriate expectations.

[anna v]

Thats CRAP Trey. I have an academically GIFTED child, one WITHOUT any learning disorders or behavioral disabilities, one who has been tested extensively and has consistently always tested well above age/grade level- she was reading before kindy and ya know what, she spelled phonetically EXACTLY the way you exampled Emma as spelling in kindy and even first grade.

I have a kid who tested on the 99.9th percentile and who was completely illiterate and could not read until he was 8. Nobody ever suggested holding him back except me. And in retrospect I was wrong.

Emma's phonics look great to me. My guy has no phoneme awareness at all, even at 15. His spelling is a complete crapshoot and if he were at Emma's school, he'd still be in grade 1, using the standards they are using for her ;)

[mudcreekmama]

Trey,

I honestly think your school board is off its freaking rocker.

My END of second grader newly 8, uses TONS of invented spellings - she uses a's for all vowels. She has attention issues in class, some memory issues, but it has NEVER EVER been suggested that retention would be in her best interest. We have discussed how being a summer baby she would have benefitted from starting school a year later, but it would be detrimental to retain her now. A child's SOCIAL needs are paramount at this stage.

She DOES have self esteem issues because of it, she recognizes she's behind her classmates in reading and writing and the type of learning environment she is in does not work for her, she needs a very small class environment and one on one attention with someone else handling "holding" the short term memory stuff for her while she learns to.

She told her psychologist "Everyone in my class is smarter than me" and the psychologist answered her honestly "I don't think so. Your teacher would have to know a thousand kids before she met one as smart AS you!" We just got her WISC testing back and she's GIFTED!

I AM a proponent of Waldorf early childhood education. And Enki Education. I think the model prepares young children for academic learning by engaging their whole body, all their sense organs, and I think they leave it with a "knowing" about how they best learn and they've been given enough time to just be little kids that they are all ready for the academics when they get them.

My DH is a special education teacher, he manages a learning centre. Unless there were other issues indicating a problem - social immaturity, gross motor skill issues, behavioural issues - he wouldn't even *contemplate* seeing your child until the middle of first grade to assess an issue about reading ability, there's just too much natural variation in readiness at this age!

[cinnamon]

I'm sorry Trey - but these people are fucking nuts.
...

I'm sorry you're dealing with this now - the school really should've given you the head's up months ago - so that you're not scrambling around *now* during summer vacation.

I'm in a hurry but wanted to second this, EMPHATICALLY. Trey, I find it incredibly ridiculous that you have had regular meetings with Emma's teachers and you are just now finding out how severe they believe the problem is (note, I did not say how severe the problem is, 'cause IMO it's NOT). Either a) they have been having doubts for some time and neglected to share them with you, or b) they are basically telling you that they just pulled their heads out of their asses and realized that- in their opinion- there is a problem.

In either case, this absolute lack of professionalism would be, in and of itself, just cause for me to consider another school.

{{{Trey}}} This sucks. Good luck!

[mudcreekmama]

And I'm wondering - do you think she's being "profiled" in some way?

We have friends with adopted kids with FAS who are AMAZING kids and totally AVERAGE without any delays leftover from their early days - and they get watched like hawks and anything they do outside the average gets met with concern amnd the threat of intervention....you know like having a bad day?

It makes me wonder if something like this might be going on with Emma...if she was white and a birth child would they just look at your family and say "Oh yeah she's on the lower side of average and it'll all even out by the time she's done first grade" - like every school I know does regardless of parents begging for assessments done earlier.

[alottatea]

I just want to parrot what everyone else here has said. She sounds like she has a great sense of phonemic awareness. And I know it's a different situation since we're homeschoolers, but that's exactly how my 8 year old spells words she doesn't know. I definitely second the advice about looking into other options for her. That has to be SO frustrating!

[mudcreekmama]

And here's the LA expectations from the two year kindergarten program in Ontario...
By the end of Kindergarten, children will:

A. communicate by talking and by listening and speaking to others for a variety of purposes and in a variety of contexts;

B. demonstrate understanding and critical awareness of a variety of written materials that are read by and with the teacher;

C. use reading strategies that are appropriate for beginning readers in order to make sense of a variety of written materials;

D. communicate in writing, using strategies that are appropriate for beginners;

E. demonstrate a beginning understanding and critical awareness of media texts.

SPECIFIC EXPECTATIONS

Oral Communication

As children progress through the Kindergarten years, they:

1. explore sounds, rhythms, and language structures with guidance and on their own (e.g., generate rhymes, including nonsense words; identify syllables through actions, such as clapping; manipulate sounds and words in shared, guided, and independent activities, such as singing songs or chants or participating in finger plays) [A]*

2. listen and respond to others for a variety of purposes (e.g., to exchange ideas, express feelings, offer opinions) and in a variety of contexts (e.g., after read-alouds and shared reading or writing activities; while solving a class math problem; in imaginary or exploratory play; at the learning centres; while engaged in games and outdoor play; while making scientific observations of creatures outdoors) [A]
Student Talk: Initially (when taking on the role of parent at the house centre) “The baby is crying.” Eventually “Don’t cry, I’ll change your diaper for you.” “I’m making a house. What are you making? I think you should paint yours blue.”

3. follow one- and two-step directions in different contexts (e.g., in classroom routines; music, drama, and dance activities; outdoor play; learning centres; large-group activities) [A]

4. use language in various contexts to connect new experiences with what they already know (e.g., contribute ideas orally during shared or interactive writing; contribute to conversations at learning centres; respond to teacher prompts) [A]
Student Talk: “I made a sandcastle like this at the beach.” “I built a snowman with my brother like the one in the story.”

5. use language to talk about their thinking, to reflect, and to solve problems [A]
Teacher Prompts: “I wonder how you knew that.” “How did you figure that out?” “What were you thinking about?”

6. use specialized vocabulary for a variety of purposes (e.g., terms for things they are building or equipment they are using) [A]
Student Talk: At the block centre: “We put a roof on our house.” At the water centre: “I poured the water in the funnel.” After listening to a book being read about farming and then creating a farm with blocks: “My silo doesn’t have any grain in it yet.”

7. ask questions for a variety of purposes (e.g., for direction, for assistance, for obtaining information, for clarification, for help in understanding something) and in different contexts (e.g., during discussions and conversations with peers and adults; before, during, and after read-aloud activities and shared reading; while making observations on a class walk; in small groups at learning centres) [A]

8. begin to use and interpret gestures, tone of voice, and other non-verbal means to communicate and respond (e.g., respond to non-verbal directions from the teacher; vary tone of voice when dramatizing; name feelings that are expressed in facial expressions in photos or illustrations; recognize when someone is upset) [A]

9. describe personal experiences, using vocabulary and details appropriate tothe situation [A]
Student Talk: Initially “We went out for supper.” “My dad and I went out for supper.” Eventually “Last night I went out for supper with my dad because Oma was busy.”

10. orally retell simple events and simple familiar stories in proper sequence [A]
Student Talk: Initially “We cooked the apples.” Eventually “First we had to peel all of the apples. Then we cut them up and cooked them. Then we mashed them and ate the apple sauce.” Initially “Humpty Dumpty fell down and couldn’t get up.” Eventually “Humpty Dumpty was sitting on a wall and he fell down. The king and his men tried to help him but he was too broken and they couldn’t fix him. The end.”

11. demonstrate awareness that words can rhyme, can begin or end with the same sound, and are composed of phonemes that can be manipulated to create new words (e.g., identify or predict rhyming words; clap syllables in words; replace or delete the initial sounds in a word in songs, poems, chants, name games) [A,C]

READING

As children progress through the Kindergarten years, they:

12. demonstrate an interest in reading (e.g., expect to find meaning in pictures and text, choose to look at reading materials, respond to texts read by the teacher, reread familiar text, confidently make attempts at reading) [B, C]

13. identify personal preferences in reading materials (e.g., choose fiction and non-fiction books, magazines, posters, computerized interactive texts that they enjoy) in different contexts (e.g., teacher read-alouds, shared experiences in reading books, independent reading time) [B,C]
Student Talk: “I like the bug books because I really like spiders.” “Read the book about Thomas again! It was funny.” “I’m making a maze. I read books with mazes all the time.”

14. respond to a variety of materials read aloud to them (e.g., participate in oral discussions after reading; ask questions to clarify understanding; dramatize familiar stories at the retelling or drama centre; paint, draw, or construct models of characters or settings) [B,C]
Teacher Prompts: After reading a book about a forest: “How do you think the author feels about forests? How do you think the author wants us to feel about forests? Why do you think there are photographs instead of illustrations in the book?” After reading a book about a social issue relevant to the class: “Who is this book written for? What would this story be about from another point of view?”

15. use illustrations to support comprehension of texts that are read by and with the teacher (e.g., initially: use the information in the pictures in a storybook as they tell the story; eventually: use pictures to support predictions and to confirm the meaning of a word) [B, C]

16. use prior knowledge to make connections (e.g., to new experiences, to other books, to events in the world) to help them understand a diverse range of materials read by and with the teacher [B,C]
Student Talk: “I live in an apartment,too.” “That’s just like the other bookwe read.” “My grandpa and I collectedrocks and we made an Inukshuk likethe one on the postcard.” “That bookis just like a movie I saw.”

17. make predictions regarding an unfamiliar text that is read by and with the teacher, using prior experience, knowledge of familiar texts, and general knowledge of the world around them (e.g., use the cover pictures and/or title to determine the topic and/or text form) [B,C]
Teacher Prompts: “What do you thinkthis book might be about? How didyou figure that out?” “What kind ofbook do you think this is? What doesthe picture tell us about what mighthappen in the book? What clues didyou use to help you figure that out?”“What words do you think might be inthis book?” “What do you know aboutbirds that will help us read this book?”

18. retell stories in proper sequence that have been read by and with the teacher, using pictures in the book and/or props (e.g., use props such as finger puppets or flannel-board characters; use plastic models at the sand table to tell the story of the Gingerbread Man) [B,C]

19. retell information from non-fiction materials that have been read by and with the teacher in a variety of contexts (e.g., read-alouds, shared reading experiences), using pictures and/or props [B, C]
Student Talk: Initially “First he was a caterpillar, then he was a butterfly.” Eventually “First the butterfly is an egg, then it turns into a caterpillar, the caterpillar spins a chrysalis, and then it’s a beautiful butterfly.”

20. demonstrate an awareness of basic book conventions and concepts of print when a text is read aloud or when they are beginning to read print (e.g., hold the book the right way up; start at the beginning of the book; turn the pages in the correct order; recognize that print uses letters, words, spaces between words, and sentences; understand that printed materials contain messages; follow the print with a pointer for the class as a story is read aloud during shared reading) [B,C]

21. demonstrate knowledge of most letters of the alphabet in different contexts (e.g., use a variety of capital and lower-case manipulative letters in letter play; identify letters by name on signs and labels at learning centres, in chart stories, in poems, in big books, on traffic signs; identify the sound that is represented by a letter; identify a word that begins with the letter) [B,C]
Student Talk: “It’s a capital T.” “That’s m.” “That word starts like my name – Jasdeep.”

22. begin to use reading strategies to make sense of unfamiliar texts in print (e.g., use pictures; use knowledge of oral language structures, of a few high-frequency words, and/or of sound-symbol relationships; initially: tell a story using the pictures, recognize some familiar names or words; eventually: read patterned and simple texts2) [C]
Teacher Prompts: “Let’s do a picture walk of the book.” “I noticed that you looked at the picture before you tried that word.” “If you think the word is jump, then what letter will we see when we lift the sticky note?”

2. Examples of patterned and simple texts are: Reading Recovery: patterned text, levels 2, 3; simple text, levels 3, 4, 5, 6; Fountas and Pinnell: patterned text, levels B, C; simple text, levels C, D; PM Benchmark: patterned text, levels 2, 3; simple text, levels 3, 4, 5, 6; DRA: patterned text, levels 2, 3; simple text, level 4; Alphakids: patterned text, levels 2, 3; simple text, levels 3, 4, 5, 6.

Writing

As children progress through the Kindergarten years, they:

23. demonstrate interest in writing (e.g., choose a variety of writing materials, such as adhesive notes, labels, envelopes, coloured paper, markers, crayons, pencils) and choose to write in a variety of contexts (e.g., draw or record ideas at learning centres) [D]

24. demonstrate an awareness that writing can convey ideas or messages (e.g., contribute ideas to modelled, shared, or interactive writing experiences; ask the teacher to write out new words for them; ask questions about the meaning of something in print) [D]
Student Talk: “What does that say?” “What does it mean?”

25. write simple messages (e.g., a grocery list on unlined paper; a greeting card made on a computer; labels for a block or sand construction), using a combination of pictures, symbols, knowledge of the correspondence between letters and sounds (phonics), and familiar words (e.g., initially: use pictures and strings of random letters; eventually: use such familiar words as I, to, and my, and such spelling approximations as “I lv u mum” or “dnt tuch”) [D]
Teacher Prompts: “Stretch the word and listen to the sounds.” “What sound do you hear at the beginning (middle, end) of that word?” “Whose name starts with that sound?”

26. begin to use classroom resources to support their writing (e.g., a classroom word wall that is made up of children’s names, words from simple patterned texts, and words used repeatedly in shared or interactive writing experiences; signs or charts in the classroom; picture dictionaries; alphabet cards; books) [B,D]

27. experiment with a variety of simple writing forms for different purposes and in a variety of contexts (e.g., write letters at the post office centre; make signs at the block centre; record their findings at the water centre or dramatic play centre; make a list of classmates’ names; make greeting cards at the visual arts centre; tell stories at the writing centre or painting centre) [D]

28. communicate ideas about personal experiences and/or familiar stories, and experiment with personal voice in their writing (e.g., make a drawing of a day at the park and retell their experiences orally to their classmates; make a story map of“The Three Little Pigs”and retell the story individually to the teacher during a writing conference) [D]

Understanding of Media Materials

As children progress through the Kindergarten years, they:

29. begin to respond critically to animated works (e.g., cartoons in which animals talk, movies in which animals go to school) [E]
Teacher Prompts: “Whom do you think the people who created this cartoon made it for?” “Who do you think likes to watch cartoons or animated works?” “What is it about this cartoon that makes you want to watch it?”

30. communicate their ideas verbally and non-verbally about a variety of media materials (e.g., describe their feelings in response to seeing a DVD or a video; dramatize messages from a safety video or poster; paint pictures in response to an advertisement or CD) [E]
Teacher Prompt: “How was Yen’s thinking about the DVD/video different from yours?”

31. view and listen to a variety of media materials (e.g., videos, photographs, posters, menus, advertisements), and respond critically to them [E]
Teacher Prompts: “Someone made this poster. Whom do you think he or she wanted to look at it? Why?” “Sometimes when you buy cereal, there are toys in the box. Why do you think the people who made the cereal put toys in there?”

[Rosemary]

Thats CRAP Trey. I have an academically GIFTED child, one WITHOUT any learning disorders or behavioral disabilities, one who has been tested extensively and has consistently always tested well above age/grade level- she was reading before kindy and ya know what, she spelled phonetically EXACTLY the way you exampled Emma as spelling in kindy and even first grade. She's a straight A student who is always the teachers pet and ALWAYS at the top of her class, I know I just sound braggy here but my point is what you post is nothing less than what she was doing at that age!! Further, I have a very sweet, capable, smart little girl who just finished 1st grade with glowing reviews and she STILL spells things phonetically like you exampled. The simpler, single syllable words she would probably get correct NOW, but that's because she has a teacher who has gradually introduced them. The more complex words she would still spell in a similar way.

PLEASE, do yourself a favor and check out other schools- even the *public* school. Nothing you have posted recently gives me ANY reason to think Emma would benefit from repeating kindy. Granted, we're only seeing a snapshot here but I think that maybe the issue is you are working with a private school that has unreasonable age-appropriate expectations.
I agree with what you wrote here. The schools expectations sound very off. Emma sounds like she is where she should be at her age. I would hestiate to keep her in an enviroment like that. {{{Trey and Emma}}}

[Artemis]

Oh my, Trey. I'm sorry. That jus does not seem right at all. R was spelling like Emma at her age and did up until the middle of 2nd grade, until her spelling just took off. She wasn't reading much at end of kindy beyond sounding out 3-letter words and knowing a few sight words, but those weren't even consistent!

Beggining 2nd grade she was below average in reading, but by the middle of the year, she was above average, but way ahead in comprehension and in understanding writing skills. She just doesn't enjoy those things as much as, for example, talking, lol! Oh, and she's a math whiz. She is tested as gifted as well.

I actually wanted to put her into first last fall because of reading, because she's a summer b-day, and because we had homeschooled in the past and because I am Waldorf/Enki-minded. I think early childhood academics should be very, very low key.

But, the PS did not want to place her in 1st! They really wanted her in 2nd, despite the fact she needed extra reading help the beginning of the year. I really think it was the right decision for her, too. She would have been so bored in 1st....heck, she was bored in 2nd much of the time.

I really don't know what is right for Emma, but from what you posted, there is no reason to think she should be retained. Oh, and big emotions won't get a kid retained in our PS either. There is a 2nd grade girl who cried almost every day R's class who was also one of the happiest, friendliest kids when she isn't crying or mad, lol!

[elsie]

omgosh Trey, I am SO angry for you! These people are nuts.

Retention is a bad idea 98% of the time. I'm sure you've done your research, but here's just a sample of articles that show retention just doesn't do what teachers wish it would do for kids. It's just not worth it.

http://www.news.wisc.edu/3389
http://www.epc.msu.edu/publications/accountability/at-risk.htm
http://naecs.crc.uiuc.edu/newsletter/volume6/number1.html

Not to mention the fact that Emma IS NOT behind! All the examples you've shown us of her work and attitude about schoolwork tell me that she is just fine. Needing intervention and support, maybe, but FINE.

She should get the support she needs in the grade her peers are. Period. There is no need to hold her back! The learning support person should KNOW this- argh, I want to freak out on her and I don't even know her!!

The fact that a Montessori school is telling you these upsetting things boggles my mind. What school IS this??? (You don't have to answer that of course, but I'd love to know- I have many colleagues who work(ed) in the bay area.)

If this were me, I'd put my foot down, make them promote Emma to 1st grade, and expect support to be in place to meet any special needs Emma has. If she has some kind of diagnosable learning disability, it will do her no good to repeat the identical K year she just finished. She won't mature out of a learning issue, that only comes with therapy and intervention and support.

But like I said, as a 15 year veteran Montessori teacher, I don't think she's behind!!!

[Jewel2]

w/ something I think Trey posted earlier. (Trey, sorry if I am confusing you w/ someone else). But I think you posted at the old YAAPS that only the African-American kids or only the minority kids were going to pullout or specialists at your school, and you were concerned. This doesn't mean your school is blatantly racist -- in fact, I'm sure they really make a big deal about diversity -- but if the result of their academic standards is that only minority kids get pullout or retained, that is just a not a positive environment for Emma.

And I'm wondering - do you think she's being "profiled" in some way?

We have friends with adopted kids with FAS who are AMAZING kids and totally AVERAGE without any delays leftover from their early days - and they get watched like hawks and anything they do outside the average gets met with concern amnd the threat of intervention....you know like having a bad day?

It makes me wonder if something like this might be going on with Emma...if she was white and a birth child would they just look at your family and say "Oh yeah she's on the lower side of average and it'll all even out by the time she's done first grade" - like every school I know does regardless of parents begging for assessments done earlier.

[mudcreekmama]

Micki, I posted the expectations of the Ontario Kindergarten below (a province that consistently turns out great test scores nationally. Internationally on the PISA Canada is ranked 4th internationally in reading and the USA isn't even in the top 20 of the 57 countries that participate (I'm not a fan of standardized tests...I'm just offering this as a point of reference that Canada is thought to have a top notch public education system internationally)

I'm just wondering, after reading those expectations, if you would HONESTLY retain your child and be "freaked out" if they were not performing at the level of your other children?

This is on my mind because of a conversation I had yesterday with a family member who most definitely "ranks children" by their intelligence and expects ALL children to perform at the level of her own - however her own have all tested as GIFTED so GOD HELP the child who isn't!

Being AVERAGE is NOT delayed!

I probably shouldn't say this, I'm going to regret it (I guess I already am) but I just feel there is something condescending about this post!

[Sue]

I'd say get an independent evaluation too. Reading what she is doing to me sounds like she is right on track. I have one that is has LDs and one that is advanced in academics and Emma sound smack dab in the middle of both.

From reading about benchmarks, and the IMPORTANT building steps toward reading. It looks like her phonemic awareness is great! How's her ability to rhyme? That would give you a great indication of her deeper understanding of language and the written word. IT is *very* possible that Emma is just taking all the pieces of reading, truly integrating them into her mind so she FULLY understands them. Where other kids may just be very good at remembering and mimicking, but don't have to deep and ingrained knowledge. I think it's really really hard to tell because they are only in KINDERGARTEN. And if your school is doing Kumon type teaching, they may just be producing parrots.

Gabrielle's 1st grade teacher makes a good point on this when she talks about a boy in her class that can rattle off the multiplication and division table. He goes to Kumon and he receives "training." He can repeat those things, but he does NOT know how to divide and multiple.

I know it sounds harsh, but that school has an agenda and as a parent I would be really concerned that it may not be in the best interests of Emma. Of course I could be way off base, that is why I would suggest an independent evaluation. Some who is not worried about having all their first graders seeming to be so advanced (if that is the case, I don't know what CA standards are) I am really bothered by them pulling the maturity card after the fact! School have a tendency to think your child is maturing or focusing age appropriately until they have an academic issue, now all of a sudden THAT'S the problem. It's almost like they are putting the issue (which, I could be wrong, I DON'T see in your description of Emma's academics) back in the lap of the child!

(((Trey))) I understand your conflict. I REALLY REALLY do. Except, Elizabeth *IS* behind. But instead of holding her back, I said move her along and catch her up please and thankyouverymuch.

I am not an educational professional (but please find one without and agenda) so I don't' want to tell you what to do. But in my heart of hearts I believe that unless you have a young kindergartener, and they are obviously young for their age (having NOTHING to do with academics before 3rd grade!) that retention is a horrible idea, and an easy way out for schools.

When I found out we would either be testing Elizabeth for LDs or holding her back I was mortified. My dyslexic sister was held back in 1st grade. And retaught what she learned in 1st grade. THAT sort of instruction didn't do anything for her to help her gain knowledge. They finally allowed her into 2nd grade at the SAME point she when she finished first grade the first time. She got some help with her dyslexia and did barely ok. Then she stopped receiving that help. Lo and behold 6th grade comes along and she is behind. Hold her back another year, advance her at the end of her second year in 6th grade even though she did not advance academically. So now she was behind in 7th grade after being held back twice. Can you guess what happened? Finally she was 16 years old in 9th grade and getting ready to fail again because no one cared to look at the real issue, she dropped out of high school. My extremely intelligent sister has HORRIBLE HORRIBLE self esteem. And it affects every aspect of her life. It breaks my heart. And I fully believe it is because how the school and, in some part related to the lack of advocacy WRT school, my parents failed her.

Another example is this 2nd grader I know from Elizabeth's Kindergarten class. They held her back in kindergarten (even though she has a dyslexic brother) and at the end of SECOND grade she was identified for SpeD. She has a LOT of leg work to catch up now, and she is a year behind her peers ALREADY!

I know I am talking about LDs. And like I said, I *don't* see that with Emma. But it all relates back to the responsibility of the school (with the help of parents of course!) to make sure they are moving along that educational curve on track and on grade level. If they can't do that then there is something else going on and they need to figure it out without holding them back.

*IF* she is in fact behind, remember she did not fail kindergarten. Kindergarten failed her! :-(

[Sue]

My dev paed will only consider retention if it is part of a sensible plan for remediation. So just repeating a kid without identifying why you are doing it (that would be identifying an LD IMO) and how it is to be remediated and MOST IMPORTANTLY why the retention will remediate this and how come the services cannot be delivered in the age appropriate classroom.

He generally does not consider social immaturity to be enough of a reason BTW.

And her phonemic awareness and writing ability look just fine to me.
:iagree::iagree:

[Sue]

This is on my mind because of a conversation I had yesterday with a family member who most definitely "ranks children" by their intelligence and expects ALL children to perform at the level of her own - however her own have all tested as GIFTED so GOD HELP the child who isn't!


Breaks my heart! And irks me a bit! I feel sorry for children when their parents only seem to see their children's intellectual achievements. Or at least that is the only way they portray them to the rest of the world.


Being AVERAGE is NOT delayed!



Sing it Sista!

[MsBig]

nt
I'm sorry Trey - but these people are fucking nuts.

There is no way that Emma is *behind* for just-finished-Kindergartner-normal-kid. DD - who was identified as gifted in 3rd grade - was emphatically not really reading, nor spelling - hell, she could barely hold a pencil properly. (Actually she couldn't hold a pencil at the beginning of K - but whatever).
Up until 3rd grade, no one was doing cartwheels over DD's academics.
What we mostly heard from teachers and other adults was she was bright, very expressive and creative. Her reading definately started picking up in second grade - but it was still *early* reading.

I agree with Jewels and Davidah - you should take her and have a very extensive evaluation done for LD or vision issues or whatever else can be evaluated for and let that be your guide.

I also agree that you should changie schools - it sounds like the staff has already made up their minds about Emma and it's likely that they will view her through that filter from here on out. I'm sure you have a huge emotional investment in this particular school; but sometimes things just aren't a good fit - it's no one's fault really, just that there is a disconnect; it happens. {{{{{{{T & G & E}}}}}}}} I'm sorry you're dealing with this now - the school really should've given you the head's up months ago - so that you're not scrambling around *now* during summer vacation.

[Kari]

I'm just curious how you see Trey's Emma as being that much behind where your children were at when they finished kindergarten?

From what he posted, she uses creative spelling (fairly accurately - most of those words are not typical words a kindergartener or 1st grader could spell accurately anyway - hello, blow hole? burrito?), just as you say your children did.

I am really shocked at the tone of your post, to be perfectly honest. I don't think his daughter's abilities are anywhere near the level that would cause a parent to "freak out" over them.

[Kari]

Hey, Trey, I just wanted to throw a few thoughts out that might help.

My daughter, Greta, is the quiet one who always flew under the radar. From looking at her work at a superficial level, the average person might think she was behind - terrible spelling, mediocre grammar, etc.

However, while mechanics may not be her thing, higher thinking definitely is. She is doing very advanced mathematics at the conceptual level, but her arithmetic sometimes has errors. She won an award for WordMaster analogies this year, but she still spells like a first grader.

I think there are some people who excel at the mechanics of academics - spelling, grammar, arithmetic, etc. - and some people who excel at higher level thinking who just never get a grip on the mechanics (or who have to work extra hard on them). I have an uncle who is a PhD, college professor, international speaker in his field, etc., who is also a terrible speller and not exactly detail oriented. (Of course there are some people who excel at both - but it's definitely not a hand-in-hand proposition, kwim?)

So, I say, trust your gut. You know Emma better than the experts. You know how her brain works, how she thinks.

(((Trey))) I think you are an amazing parent!

[Sue]

I think there are some people who excel at the mechanics of academics - spelling, grammar, arithmetic, etc. - and some people who excel at higher level thinking who just never get a grip on the mechanics (or who have to work extra hard on them).


Left brain right brain. ;-)

(((Trey))) I think you are an amazing parent!
Totally agree!

[Sue]

Well, it's hard to judge because we all think our children are terrific and wonderful and brilliant. :) And they are! They all have unique and wonderful attirbutes. They all learn at different paces, too.

I have had three children go through kindie and one about to enter kindie. The three that have gone through, mind you this was all public school, were doing far more than Emma. Alex has aspergers and was very emotionally immature and left kindie a strong reader. Leelee knew how to read basic words before she went but she turned 6 just after school started. Ben went in to kindie with language delays and in speech therapy. He had barely learned his colors before school started and didn't know any letters or numbers. He left kindie reading independently. Kari will be 5 after school starts, but is doing the inventive spelling and sounding out words.

But this is where *my* kids are. I don't know if I am a good judge to say whether or not Emma is behind. If she were my kid, and I had still had the others, I would be freaked out and definitely retaining...but that's based on my previous experiences. Make sense?

Do you ahve a list of what they would like the kids to be able to do by the end of kindie? Do an inventory with Emma to see where she's really at. Is she behind enough in some areas that you *won't* be able to catch up by the end of summer? Is she behind in at least half the areas? a quarter?

Which do you think will be more damaging to her self-esteem? Falling behind the class and struggling to catch up? Or watching her friends move ahead but being ahead of the kids she's with now?

Have you had her tested for learning disabilities? Maybe there is something more going on that if you had a name for it, you might be able to develop more specific strategies to help her out?

I know it's so hard when it's your baby they are talking about. Alex's fourth grade teachers suggested retaining him to help wtih his "immaturity" and they would NOT listen that another year wasn't going to help him when it was related to a disability and not him just being immature. He's always going to lag behind socially and, according to research, it should catch up by the time he's 18 or so LOL

It's important to be your child's advocate, but sometimes you also have to step back and look at things from a different angle. Maybe even talk to some PS kindie teachers to see their perspective.

(((MICKI))) When I was reading this I got a little upset too. Then I got to the sig, and realized it was you and I was probably reading this wrong. I *totally* know you didn't mean it this way, but it was hurtful to me, a a parent with a child who has wasn't doing ANYTHING close to what your children were doing in Kindie. If I judged how Elizabeth should be doing by what Gabrielle is doing she'd still be in 1st grade. Maybe even lower because Liz is doing 3rd grade work and Gab is doing 4th.

[mudcreekmama]

YES! Never mind throwing in Visual/Spatial, Verbal/Linguistic, Logical/Mathematical, Bodily/Kinesthetic, Musical/Rhythmic, Interpersonal, Intrapersonal, visual, auditory, kinesthetic!

[Sue]

YES! Never mind throwing in Visual/Spatial, Verbal/Linguistic, Logical/Mathematical, Bodily/Kinesthetic, Musical/Rhythmic, Interpersonal, Intrapersonal, visual, auditory, kinesthetic!

YES! I have a bunch of friend who are going back to school to become teachers, and I constantly push them to learn more about Multiple intelligences.

[Sarah]

(((MICKI))) When I was reading this I got a little upset too. Then I got to the sig, and realized it was you and I was probably reading this wrong. I *totally* know you didn't mean it this way, but it was hurtful to me, a a parent with a child who has wasn't doing ANYTHING close to what your children were doing in Kindie. If I judged how Elizabeth should be doing by what Gabrielle is doing she'd still be in 1st grade. Maybe even lower because Liz is doing 3rd grade work and Gab is doing 4th.

Me too. As a parent of a challenged child, one who WAS held back, I found it very hard to read and I was very hurt and angry.

But I know in my heart that Micki's intentions weren't to do that, and that if she knew that anyone would perceive it that way, she would have found other words. She was trying to help. I know this. So I can let go of my feelings (mostly) and carry on.

It's Angus' last day of school. He did this whole year without accommodations. He got all A's and B's. :banana:

So even retained kids can do just fine. Sometimes it works. But I totally think retention would be all WRONG for Emma.

[mudcreekmama]

I'm going to repost this in a simpler format - this is the expectations for THE END OF KINDERGARTEN in Ontario.


Demonstrate an interest in reading (e.g., expect to find meaning in pictures and text, choose to look at reading materials, respond to texts read by the teacher, reread familiar text, confidently make attempts at reading) NOT THAT THEY ARE READING FLUENTLY - AN INTEREST IN BOOKS AND STORIES

Identify personal preferences in reading materials (e.g., choose fiction and non-fiction books, magazines, posters, computerized interactive texts that they enjoy) in different contexts (e.g., teacher read-alouds, shared experiences in reading books, independent reading time) Student Talk: “I like the bug books because I really like spiders.” “Read the book about Thomas again! It was funny.” “I’m making a maze. I read books with mazes all the time.” AGAIN DEMONSTRATE AN INTEREST IN LOOKING AT BOOKS AND HEARING STORIES

Respond to a variety of materials read aloud to them (e.g., participate in oral discussions after reading; ask questions to clarify understanding; dramatize familiar stories at the retelling or drama centre; paint, draw, or construct models of characters or settings) Teacher Prompts: After reading a book about a forest: “How do you think the author feels about forests? How do you think the author wants us to feel about forests? Why do you think there are photographs instead of illustrations in the book?” After reading a book about a social issue relevant to the class: “Who is this book written for? What would this story be about from another point of view?” DEMONSTRATE THAT THEY ARE ACTIVELY LISTENING TO STORIES BY ORALLY ANSWERING QUESTIONS

Use illustrations to support comprehension of texts that are read by and with the teacher (e.g., initially: use the information in the pictures in a storybook as they tell the story; eventually: use pictures to support predictions and to confirm the meaning of a word) LOOK AT PICTURE BOOKS

Use prior knowledge to make connections (e.g., to new experiences, to other books, to events in the world) to help them understand a diverse range of materials read by and with the teacher Student Talk: “I live in an apartment,too.” “That’s just like the other bookwe read.” “My grandpa and I collectedrocks and we made an Inukshuk likethe one on the postcard.” “That bookis just like a movie I saw.” TALK ABOUT BOOKS READ TO THEM USING THEIR LIFE EXPERIENCES

Make predictions regarding an unfamiliar text that is read by and with the teacher, using prior experience, knowledge of familiar texts, and general knowledge of the world around them (e.g., use the cover pictures and/or title to determine the topic and/or text form) Teacher Prompts: “What do you thinkthis book might be about? How didyou figure that out?” “What kind ofbook do you think this is? What doesthe picture tell us about what mighthappen in the book? What clues didyou use to help you figure that out?”“What words do you think might be inthis book?” “What do you know aboutbirds that will help us read this book?” LOOK AT BOOKS

Retell stories in proper sequence that have been read by and with the teacher, using pictures in the book and/or props (e.g., use props such as finger puppets or flannel-board characters; use plastic models at the sand table to tell the story of the Gingerbread Man) RETELL STORIES THEY HEARD USING PROMPTS

Retell information from non-fiction materials that have been read by and with the teacher in a variety of contexts (e.g., read-alouds, shared reading experiences), using pictures and/or props Student Talk: Initially “First he was a caterpillar, then he was a butterfly.” Eventually “First the butterfly is an egg, then it turns into a caterpillar, the caterpillar spins a chrysalis, and then it’s a beautiful butterfly.” RETELL STORIES USING PROMPTS

Demonstrate an awareness of basic book conventions and concepts of print when a text is read aloud or when they are beginning to read print (e.g., hold the book the right way up; start at the beginning of the book; turn the pages in the correct order; recognize that print uses letters, words, spaces between words, and sentences; understand that printed materials contain messages; follow the print with a pointer for the class as a story is read aloud during shared reading) KNOW HOW TO LOOK AT A BOOK

Demonstrate knowledge of most letters of the alphabet in different contexts (e.g., use a variety of capital and lower-case manipulative letters in letter play; identify letters by name on signs and labels at learning centres, in chart stories, in poems, in big books, on traffic signs; identify the sound that is represented by a letter; identify a word that begins with the letter) Student Talk: “It’s a capital T.” “That’s m.” “That word starts like my name – Jasdeep.” RECOGNIZE MOST OF THE ALPHABET AND UNDERSTAND THAT EACH SYMBOL HAS A SOUND, KNOW MANY OF THE SOUNDS

Begin to use reading strategies to make sense of unfamiliar texts in print (e.g., use pictures; use knowledge of oral language structures, of a few high-frequency words, and/or of sound-symbol relationships; initially: tell a story using the pictures, recognize some familiar names or words; eventually: read patterned and simple texts2)
Teacher Prompts: “Let’s do a picture walk of the book.” “I noticed that you looked at the picture before you tried that word.” “If you think the word is jump, then what letter will we see when we lift the sticky note?” USE PICTURES IN BOOKS TO SUPPORT FIRST ATTEMPTS AT DECODING TEXT

[Sue]

It's Angus' last day of school. He did this whole year without accommodations. He got all A's and B's. :banana:


Go Angus!


So even retained kids can do just fine. Sometimes it works. But I totally think retention would be all WRONG for Emma.

I agree. I think Emma's school may be trying to hold Emma back to keep their achievement up. Not too cynical am I? I do believe that in rare instances a child just needs another year. And I believe that some kids benefit from repeating a grade. In Emma's case, I believe it will do more harm than good (In my SOOOOOO unqualified opinion)

[jerzymama]

I honestly didn't know that "philosophy" is considered a tough and very demanding major. (Aunt brag!) When he was a Jr. in HS - I posted this on the old YAAPS I was so proud - he won a Scholastic Magazine Gold Medal award for writing. His story, out of thousands, was chosen to be published *in* Scholastic as representative of a descriptive essay (or something like that!).

He was NOT reading by the end of second grade. There was no fluency at. all. It was a huge problem for my sister because he was in a "gifted" program (they test via IQ in preK in NYC) - his teacher not only wanted him pulled from the program but held back as well. My sister - who is also a NYC teacher - asked to be given until the end of the summer - she worked on phonic skills for a few weeks and one day, she told me, it just 'clicked'.

I am absolutely convinced that reading and LA skills are developmental - I do not think that early or late reading up until 3rd grade is really meaningful TBH. I believe in the absence of a learning disability - there is a not a only a wide continuum of *average* - the rate at which you read or don't read at an early age - is not indicative of future academic success or overall learning ability. Learning to read is like learning to draw, holding your poop, walking, etc. It's a synaptic function and no one can predict when those synapses will *grow* together/connect.

Emma is just so young to be making this judgment - she hasn't even gotten (is that a word?) to the place where they explore learning styles and strategies. Trey if you're reading this - I strongly urge you to explore PS - you might be very very surprised how willing these days a PS is to be flexible in terms of what an individual child needs - I know in Seattle a lot of care was taken in terms of placing the early grades with teachers who teach to "that type of learner",yk? And this is especially true I think with schools that on the outside appear not-so-great but have a willing and involved parent. It seems to me, that a school like Montesorri might be much less flexible simply because they have a core philosophy of *how to learn*.

[Sarah]

I agree. I think Emma's school may be trying to hold Emma back to keep their achievement up. Not too cynical am I? I do believe that in rare instances a child just needs another year. And I believe that some kids benefit from repeating a grade. In Emma's case, I believe it will do more harm than good (In my SOOOOOO unqualified opinion)

That's EXACTLY what I was thinking!!!

And thank you, re: Angus. I'm so proud of him! :hearts:

[gfrach]

I am absolutely convinced that reading and LA skills are developmental

Yes, I totally agree!!! I've posted before that C was 7.5 or so when reading finally clicked for him but he simply hasn't looked back since then and easily reads 3-5 grades ahead now. So Emma's school would have seen him as delayed in reading when he simply wasn't there yet which has not at all affected how well he reads now.

In the absence of other issues (not living in a language rich home--which I *know* Emma does, having eye issues, or true dyslexia), this will come when it comes. Heck, she spells almost as well as C does and he is 11! I think she's doing great!

[mudcreekmama]

OH WAY TO GO ANGUS!!!!!

He must be so proud of himself!

[Sarah]

OH WAY TO GO ANGUS!!!!!

He must be so proud of himself!

:bliss::bliss::yay:

He's a happy little dude, for sure.

[Holly]

Yes, I totally agree!!! I've posted before that C was 7.5 or so when reading finally clicked for him but he simply hasn't looked back since then and easily reads 3-5 grades ahead now. So Emma's school would have seen him as delayed in reading when he simply wasn't there yet which has not at all affected how well he reads now.

In the absence of other issues (not living in a language rich home--which I *know* Emma does, having eye issues, or true dyslexia), this will come when it comes. Heck, she spells almost as well as C does and he is 11! I think she's doing great!

him tested for a LD as he wasn't reading up to where she thought he should be. We finally put him in public school in the middle of 2nd grade and a few months later, the reading clicked. Now, at age 10, you cannot tell a difference between Evan who read around age 7.5 and his friends who were reading at age 5.

Isabella just finished K at our public school and there is amazingly no pressure on her to read at all. She is going at her own pace and is picking it up here and there.

[mudcreekmama]

I totally agree BUT (and I hope more Montessori teachers will weigh in!) I do not think this is indicative of a problem with Montessori - I think it is THIS school, and there is no overreaching body to make sure schools are really following the Montessori ideology like there is with Waldorf Education.

[sarahs]

I honestly didn't know that "philosophy" is considered a tough and very demanding major. (Aunt brag!) When he was a Jr. in HS - I posted this on the old YAAPS I was so proud - he won a Scholastic Magazine Gold Medal award for writing. His story, out of thousands, was chosen to be published *in* Scholastic as representative of a descriptive essay (or something like that!).

He was NOT reading by the end of second grade. There was no fluency at. all. It was a huge problem for my sister because he was in a "gifted" program (they test via IQ in preK in NYC) - his teacher not only wanted him pulled from the program but held back as well. My sister - who is also a NYC teacher - asked to be given until the end of the summer - she worked on phonic skills for a few weeks and one day, she told me, it just 'clicked'.

I am absolutely convinced that reading and LA skills are developmental - I do not think that early or late reading up until 3rd grade is really meaningful TBH. I believe in the absence of a learning disability - there is a not a only a wide continuum of *average* - the rate at which you read or don't read at an early age - is not indicative of future academic success or overall learning ability. Learning to read is like learning to draw, holding your poop, walking, etc. It's a synaptic function and no one can predict when those synapses will *grow* together/connect.

Emma is just so young to be making this judgment - she hasn't even gotten (is that a word?) to the place where they explore learning styles and strategies. Trey if you're reading this - I strongly urge you to explore PS - you might be very very surprised how willing these days a PS is to be flexible in terms of what an individual child needs - I know in Seattle a lot of care was taken in terms of placing the early grades with teachers who teach to "that type of learner",yk? And this is especially true I think with schools that on the outside appear not-so-great but have a willing and involved parent. It seems to me, that a school like Montesorri might be much less flexible simply because they have a core philosophy of *how to learn*.

I completely agree. Neither of my girls read until late in 1st grade, nor did they do much of anything that could be called writing. They are both excellent readers and writers now. My oldest was diagnosed with mild dysgraphia in 4th grade but it hasn't been much of an impediment for her and she is an excellent student.

Actually Trey, as I think about it, my experience may be helpful to you. My girls go to a fancy-schmancy private school. My oldest was admitted without question into 1st grade and there was no expectation that she be reading. 4 years later when my youngest applied we were told there was no expectation that she be reading but I think the expectations had begun to shift. Although she was ultimately admitted, they had concerns about her and made the admission contingent on her being tested. Well guess what, we never did the testing. We talked to her teachers and waited each year for the other shoe to drop and whatever it was they thought they saw on the Gesell test to manifest itself but it never did. Nope, it was my oldest with the issue, not my youngest. Both of them are voracious readers, fine writers and mathmeticians and excellent students.

All this is to say that no I don't think early reading or writing is necessarily a predictor of later success and I do think there is a lot of pressure on expensive private schools to produce high test scores and acceptances to top colleges and that pressure trickles down to even the 1st grade admission and retention policies.

What you have written about Emma looks more "advanced" than what either of my kids were doing at that age and both of them have thrived in an high academic achievement environment. This school just may not be a good fit for Emma. I am particularly concerned about the implication that other kids know Emma is behind. WTF?? I am not comprehending a kindergarten environment in which kids are aware of each other's academic status. Things have changed a lot in the 10 years since my oldest started kindergarten and not always in positive ways.

[anastasia]

Yes, I totally agree!!! I've posted before that C was 7.5 or so when reading finally clicked for him but he simply hasn't looked back since then and easily reads 3-5 grades ahead now. So Emma's school would have seen him as delayed in reading when he simply wasn't there yet which has not at all affected how well he reads now.

In the absence of other issues (not living in a language rich home--which I *know* Emma does, having eye issues, or true dyslexia), this will come when it comes. Heck, she spells almost as well as C does and he is 11! I think she's doing great!

Nick struggled with reading until he was NINE. The light bulb flickered on right around his 9th birthday, and that summer, he read the entire Harry Potter series. BOOM. :thumbsup:

I really don't see why Emma would be considered "behind" based on her skills. But then, I am frequently floored by the high academic expectations of kindergarteners nowadays. (Disclaimer: I'm a Waldorf mom.)

[mudcreekmama]

I'd be concerned about the other kids "knowing" somehow too...this did become an issue for my daughter in first grade because she and two other students were being pulled for reading recovery AND my daughter was disruptive enough in class to be segregated desk wise a lot of the time (last year without one on one she did NO work at all, daydreamed, chatted, stood on her chair etc) AND she refused to participate in timed tests and spellathons. This year she and one boy go for resource help but they do all their tests with everyone else just at a lower level. The KIDS don't have a clue about the level though! I would be concerned if the KIDS know about this with Emma.

It BROKE MY HEART when one of my daughter's friends came up to me at a b-day party last year, pulled me aside and told me "She gets in trouble EVERY day you know!" And first graders are so tender and sweet their concept of "in trouble" is when someone is told to sit down or segregated for being unwilling to stop talking. I LOVED my daughters grade one teacher!

[shannon]

Trey, I'm going to agree with everyone while coming from an opposite direction. J was just reassessed last month. His teacher (who he's had for two years now) has often told me that J needs no accommodations, that he's doing very well, and that he's getting higher-level concepts that go over the heads of many of the kids in his class. When I told him that because of J's obvious brightness, I wanted to determine whether giftedness was also on his profile. His response was that he was sure J was, if not gifted, then at least very talented in mathematics.

I spoke with the psychologist about the results yesterday. Turns out that not only did he not test as clinically gifted in anything (though was quite close in several verbal reasoning categories), but that mathematics was actually a relative WEAKNESS for him, and that he was a full grade level BEHIND his class.

Teachers are in no way infallible, Trey. J's secondary learning disabilities (which are part of the larger Asperger's profile, so they're not differentiated) around math computation, fine motor executive functioning, and memory were TOTALLY MISSED by every professional we encountered until now. J was discharged from OT THREE TIMES due to "lack of functional issues." Your gut is a powerful tool, Trey, and it's telling you that they are NOT seeing your child the way you do. I re-recommend that you have her assessed, either through the school board (which is a waste of time here, and they won't even do it if it's not recommended by the teachers involved - which, in J's case, it never would have been) or privately. My suspicion is that she's probably fine, but because she had some early and ongoing speech stuff, I still see a red flag that I think needs further investigation.

But retention? Big unequivocal no.

[mudcreekmama]

OT but have you seen this?


This poem was written by Brianne McPhearson, 7th grader at Shining Mountain Waldorf School.

Waldorf Moms

Waldorf moms wear cotton socks
Woolen sweaters, Birkenstocks.
Waldorf moms have long full skirts,
Big silk scarves and layered shirts.
Waldorf moms have fluffy hair,
They’re kind and firm and make you share.
Waldorf moms drive Volvo cars
And talk of fairies, gnomes, and stars.
Waldorf moms love Waldorf meetings
Where they greet with Waldorf greetings.
Waldorf moms make Waldorf dolls
From purest wool and cotton balls.
Waldorf moms drink lots of tea
Which has been grown organically.
Waldorf moms serve fruits and meats.
Veggies, grains, and not much sweets.
Their favorite word is “nourishing.”
They love to hike and knit and sing.
They leave the gluten out of bread
And make you spend twelve hours in bed.
And if you fall and scrape your knee
They give you rescue remedy!


Oh I am SO GUILTY AS CHARGED :D

[sarahs]

My dev paed will only consider retention if it is part of a sensible plan for remediation. So just repeating a kid without identifying why you are doing it (that would be identifying an LD IMO) and how it is to be remediated and MOST IMPORTANTLY why the retention will remediate this and how come the services cannot be delivered in the age appropriate classroom.

He generally does not consider social immaturity to be enough of a reason BTW.

And her phonemic awareness and writing ability look just fine to me.

Yes! Emma may have some sort of learning issue that needs support but just repeating kindergarten without figuring out (or at least getting close to) the source of the glitch and targeting it doesn't seem effective at all. I would want to begin exploring if there is either a learning difference or maybe she just learns best in a certain way and supporting that. Or at least stay very aware of how she is doing so if at a more meaningful point she is still struggling you are ready to intervene. And if there is something there it will begin to manifest itself. But its just as likely to be something that can be supported at her grade level. For example, it would have been completely inappropriate to retain my oldest because her writing sucked because she had dysgraphia. It was appropriate to provide support and interventions at school and home to help her with her writing at her grade level.

[mudcreekmama]

Oh I'd like to stress that you check behind the scenes with testing through the school board too - here, and I suspect in Ottawa too - the board psychs ARE NOT ALLOWED TO FORMALLY GIVE A LD DIAGNOSIS because it means accomodations and thats expensive. My son's school board assessment in Ottawa was so skimpy on paper BUT when I talked with her she gave a ton of off the record recommendations that there was no way we'd see implemented by the school board - ever.

[sarahs]

Me too. As a parent of a challenged child, one who WAS held back, I found it very hard to read and I was very hurt and angry.

But I know in my heart that Micki's intentions weren't to do that, and that if she knew that anyone would perceive it that way, she would have found other words. She was trying to help. I know this. So I can let go of my feelings (mostly) and carry on.

It's Angus' last day of school. He did this whole year without accommodations. He got all A's and B's. :banana:

So even retained kids can do just fine. Sometimes it works. But I totally think retention would be all WRONG for Emma.


Oh that is so fantastic! I would love to hear more about how you guys decided to retain him and what other supports and services he got, basically how you got to this place. What a great success story!

[indigo]

I think that this is a case of the curve being raised. When I saw the words she was writing, and how she was spelling them, I was amazed. Her writing indicates great phoneme awareness. Are there really THAT many rising first graders who know how to spell those words better than that?? My kids sure couldn't at that age. I agree with most of the other folks here. I would either:

1. ignore the advice, work with her on my own and have her go to 1st grade next year
2. get her independently evaluated
3. confront the school and ask to see their standards as far as what is expected from a rising 1st grader. Other kids reading "War and Peace" is irrelevant. What are the standards? Furthermore, and this is an issue I had with our Montessori school but in a different regard, I'd want them to explain how it is that in Montessori kids are supposed to be able to work at their own pace, in their own way, but they can't teach her in 1st grade.
4. investigate other schools. I know just how painful this can be when you feel socially connected to a school. Trust me, we were at our school for more 11 years. But even though socially it was wonderful (more than wonderful) academically it was not meeting our kids needs, and we had to make that tough choice.

[Sarah]

Oh that is so fantastic! I would love to hear more about how you guys decided to retain him and what other supports and services he got, basically how you got to this place. What a great success story!

I'd love to -- things are REALLY busy here right now, but PLEASE poke me in a week or so, okay?

[~PQ]

I'm just curious how you see Trey's Emma as being that much behind where your children were at when they finished kindergarten?

From what he posted, she uses creative spelling (fairly accurately - most of those words are not typical words a kindergartener or 1st grader could spell accurately anyway - hello, blow hole? burrito?), just as you say your children did.

I am really shocked at the tone of your post, to be perfectly honest. I don't think his daughter's abilities are anywhere near the level that would cause a parent to "freak out" over them.

ITA I had this whole post typed out last night and decided it'd stirr up more crap than it was worth if I posted, but I was shocked to read Mickis post. I honestly don't get how she can compare her kids to his here because the ONLY academic thing he was specific about was Emmas terrific phonetic spelling- not sure how that differs from Mickis daughter's creative spelling.

Further- at the risk of sounding rude, I am not at all sure anyway that you can compare a child in an Alabama public school meeting their expected standard before graduating kindy with a child in a private school in the Bay Area NOT meeting their expected standard before graduating kindy.

[Pensive]

YES! Never mind throwing in Visual/Spatial, Verbal/Linguistic, Logical/Mathematical, Bodily/Kinesthetic, Musical/Rhythmic, Interpersonal, Intrapersonal, visual, auditory, kinesthetic!

Uh huh. My visual-spatial learner is a year ahead of Emma and he spells like that. He's just turned 7 and that's exactly how he would spell. But he's a classic visual-spatial type and he's all about higher level thinking. It reminds me of some things you said about Emma...her thoughts about evolution. I remember that post and I remember being struck by her depth of thought and abstract thinking. I think reading is developmental but schools keep pushing the bar higher and higher...when doing things earlier/later doesn't necessarily mean anything other than normal, diverse developmental paths.

You know, my youngest reads far more than my oldest did at this age (or at 5, for that matter). And he's not any more intelligent than my oldest. He does read much earlier, but he can't build Lego stuff like my oldest did and his math sense is nowhere near what Ben's was even at an earlier age. There's just so much diversity and "later" doesn't necessarily mean anything meaningful long-term. The kids can't be clones of each other. They don't all run off the same formula; I don't know why schools don't always get this. There's so much diversity.

She doesn't sound "behind" to me at ALL. I was particularly struck by her writing "kasadeya" because there are multiple syllables in that.

[lunita]

ITA I had this whole post typed out last night and decided it'd stirr up more crap than it was worth if I posted, but I was shocked to read Mickis post. I honestly don't get how she can compare her kids to his here because the ONLY academic thing he was specific about was Emmas terrific phonetic spelling- not sure how that differs from Mickis daughter's creative spelling.

Further- at the risk of sounding rude, I am not at all sure anyway that you can compare a child in an Alabama public school meeting their expected standard before graduating kindy with a child in a private school in the Bay Area NOT meeting their expected standard before graduating kindy.

I'm not sure, but when I responded (saying that Emma might be a bit behind average at our school) I was basing that on what the previous post, which I think said she was just at the "sounding at 3 letter words" stage, while I think most kindergarteners here have managed to learn our kindergarten sight word list and maybe a quarter are reading 4 letter phonetic words. Maybe Micki was referring to that rather than to the spelling examples in this post (which are better than Amanda could have done at that age, if I recall correctly.)

But yes, I agree with the reactions towards what Micki wrote. I don't think her kids were the average kindergarteners in their classes, and I'm sure that they have/had classmates who were behind where Emma is but still went on to first grade. I tutored kids in middle/late first grade who were confusing the sight words "saw" and "was"... and you know what? They were promoted to second grade and one has totally caught up with the rest of the other class (I think the other is getting help for some learning disabilities still).

[mudcreekmama]

My newly 8 year old spells like that too - in fact, I'd say with less phoneme awareness. She has more sight words now, but well here's an example of her writing

I sa the bllo nows it was blac. I want to the May Fer. I mayd a frand. At the end of the May Fer thar was a play. The play was abaw Thumberlina.

I saw the Bluenose it was black. I went to the May Fair. I made a friend....

She is NOT at grade level but there's no evidence of anything like dyslexia but she does have short term memory issues and attention issues. How on earth would retention "fix" that? And she's really bright too - the psych was reading me her responses to questions from the WISC test - she got full marks for her answer on why its important to have multiple news source companies!

[serialmom]

I think your summer plan sounds just right. A lot can happen over a summer. Give her time, then decide.

[mowse]

I'm just wondering, after reading those expectations, if you would HONESTLY retain your child and be "freaked out" if they were not performing at the level of your other children?


Well, I guess I should use my words a bit better as my meaning was lost. If you have a four children that all did X by Y age and child five came along and wasn't doing X by Y, you would be concerned. Not that it is always a valid concern, but in your personal sphere of experience it would be abnormal. Does that make sense? I think we've all, at some point, done an unwarranted parental freak out over something our kids should or should not be doing. That's all I'm saying.

It's possible Guy is sort of doing the same thing. He sees all the other kids being able to do certain things and starts questioning whether or not something is wrong and starts to question a lot of things. I think the reaction on both parental parts is valid and quite normal.

This is why I also suggested finding out what the guidelines were and seeing if she truly is deficient and if she is, by how much and if it were something they could overcome during the summer. I also, like many others, suggested some sort of evaluation to see if there is something else going on that may give them other tools to use.

[Jill]

My newly 8 year old spells like that too - in fact, I'd say with less phoneme awareness. She has more sight words now, but well here's an example of her writing

I sa the bllo nows it was blac. I want to the May Fer. I mayd a frand. At the end of the May Fer thar was a play. The play was abaw Thumberlina.

I saw the Bluenose it was black. I went to the May Fair. I made a friend....

She is NOT at grade level but there's no evidence of anything like dyslexia but she does have short term memory issues and attention issues. How on earth would retention "fix" that? And she's really bright too - the psych was reading me her responses to questions from the WISC test - she got full marks for her answer on why its important to have multiple news source companies!

It drives me BATTY because it makes me worry about her but she's not in any way struggling in school - so I have to just let it go yk? Her teachers are fine with it and this year her teacher even commented that she LOVED it - it showed that she wasn't afraid to use words that were unfamiliar to her and it didn't inhibit her creativity. Gotta love teachers like that, huh?

So, Trey, from what *I* can tell from this and many other posts you've made about Emma, I just don't see what they are basing their retaining recommendation on! Is she struggling socially? Is she super young and maybe what they deem to be "immature?" - not that I think that's in and of itself a good reason - but I just can't imagine how they are coming up with this unless there's something ELSE going on yk?
{{{{{HUGS}}}}
If I were you though, I would not want to be in that school for a few reasons. First, I would feel like if they DID promote her they would somehow have her "labeled" as "an issue child"....and if they don't you may have some social issues to deal with - though in my experience that's not been a problem when Em repeated first grade this past year - I just get a feel from your posts that this WOULD be an issue in your school though....and also I feel like they are being very unfair and unprofessional in their assessments if you are only now finding out there are problems. IMO there need to be HUGE ISSUES - BIG DELAYS - BIG PROBLEMS in order to retain a child at any age unless it's like delaying kindy kind of thing. You don't hold back a kid because they are not ADVANCED. THat sucks and if that is how they view her, as delayed - because she's not the superstar that some of her classmates might be - well, I just wouldn't want my child in that kind of environment.

Our public school has been wonderful for us and I have two kids there - one a super bright (not labeled gifted but possibly so) and one super bright but develompentally delayed to the point of special ed - and I feel that both of their needs are being very well met. I suggest a public school evaluation at least for peace of mind yk?
Drew is in Montessori and while it's true that in the elementary grades MOST of the kids tend to be either gifted or "different" in their learning styles they do NOT have ridiculous standards for reading early etc. IN fact, JOrdan was a late reader and they assured me it would come - and it DID. They have been very "go with the flow" unless there are concerns - and in those cases they have been highly communicative about it. It is troublesome that Emma's school has apparently not been. To me, that's inexcusable. :(

From what I know about your little girl, she is not in any way delayed and I hate to see her compared to "super performers" because that's just not reality and IMO and IME early reading and writing skills don't mean diddly unless they are accompanied by other truly gifted traits - it's just not fair to use that as a yard stick!

I am sure you'll find the perfect solution for her. Until then, {{{{more hugs}}}}

[Hobbes]

Well, I guess I should use my words a bit better as my meaning was lost. If you have a four children that all did X by Y age and child five came along and wasn't doing X by Y, you would be concerned. Not that it is always a valid concern, but in your personal sphere of experience it would be abnormal. Does that make sense? I think we've all, at some point, done an unwarranted parental freak out over something our kids should or should not be doing. That's all I'm saying.

It's possible Guy is sort of doing the same thing. He sees all the other kids being able to do certain things and starts questioning whether or not something is wrong and starts to question a lot of things. I think the reaction on both parental parts is valid and quite normal.

This is why I also suggested finding out what the guidelines were and seeing if she truly is deficient and if she is, by how much and if it were something they could overcome during the summer. I also, like many others, suggested some sort of evaluation to see if there is something else going on that may give them other tools to use.
I got that from what you were saying and I think this is what Guy is seeing/thinking.

And my experience is different from his, I was considered mentally disabled at second grade and the teachers and school didn't think I'd ever even make it about 6th grade.

I did. I finished two degrees (biology and art history) and a Ph.D. in molecular biology. I also watched ALL three of my brothers and one sister struggle through elementary school only to excel later.

Guy saw experienced something different in his own life (never problems in his or is siblings' education) and sees all the other kids (in this school) do better.

[Hobbes]

Well, it's hard to judge because we all think our children are terrific and wonderful and brilliant. :) And they are! They all have unique and wonderful attirbutes. They all learn at different paces, too.

I have had three children go through kindie and one about to enter kindie. The three that have gone through, mind you this was all public school, were doing far more than Emma. Alex has aspergers and was very emotionally immature and left kindie a strong reader. Leelee knew how to read basic words before she went but she turned 6 just after school started. Ben went in to kindie with language delays and in speech therapy. He had barely learned his colors before school started and didn't know any letters or numbers. He left kindie reading independently. Kari will be 5 after school starts, but is doing the inventive spelling and sounding out words.

But this is where *my* kids are. I don't know if I am a good judge to say whether or not Emma is behind. If she were my kid, and I had still had the others, I would be freaked out and definitely retaining...but that's based on my previous experiences. Make sense?

Do you ahve a list of what they would like the kids to be able to do by the end of kindie? Do an inventory with Emma to see where she's really at. Is she behind enough in some areas that you *won't* be able to catch up by the end of summer? Is she behind in at least half the areas? a quarter?

Which do you think will be more damaging to her self-esteem? Falling behind the class and struggling to catch up? Or watching her friends move ahead but being ahead of the kids she's with now?

Have you had her tested for learning disabilities? Maybe there is something more going on that if you had a name for it, you might be able to develop more specific strategies to help her out?

I know it's so hard when it's your baby they are talking about. Alex's fourth grade teachers suggested retaining him to help wtih his "immaturity" and they would NOT listen that another year wasn't going to help him when it was related to a disability and not him just being immature. He's always going to lag behind socially and, according to research, it should catch up by the time he's 18 or so LOL

It's important to be your child's advocate, but sometimes you also have to step back and look at things from a different angle. Maybe even talk to some PS kindie teachers to see their perspective.
Let me just say, I understand where Micki was coming from. I also understand that anecdotal evidence is anecdotal and is a valid form of opinion, but I take it at that.

Since it was Micki, I wasn't offended. Maybe hurt a little (everything hurts right now), but that it came from Micki I understood the intention and tone to be friendly and helpful.

[anastasia]

OT but have you seen this?


This poem was written by Brianne McPhearson, 7th grader at Shining Mountain Waldorf School.

Waldorf Moms

Waldorf moms wear cotton socks
Woolen sweaters, Birkenstocks.
Waldorf moms have long full skirts,
Big silk scarves and layered shirts.
Waldorf moms have fluffy hair,
They’re kind and firm and make you share.
Waldorf moms drive Volvo cars
And talk of fairies, gnomes, and stars.
Waldorf moms love Waldorf meetings
Where they greet with Waldorf greetings.
Waldorf moms make Waldorf dolls
From purest wool and cotton balls.
Waldorf moms drink lots of tea
Which has been grown organically.
Waldorf moms serve fruits and meats.
Veggies, grains, and not much sweets.
Their favorite word is “nourishing.”
They love to hike and knit and sing.
They leave the gluten out of bread
And make you spend twelve hours in bed.
And if you fall and scrape your knee
They give you rescue remedy!


Oh I am SO GUILTY AS CHARGED :D

LOL that is great! :thumbsup: It certainly describes many a mom at our school, although the only parts true about me are the cotton socks, the layered shirts and the tea. Oh, and I have been known to mention fairies now and again. :spinning:

[Hobbes]

I honestly didn't know that "philosophy" is considered a tough and very demanding major. (Aunt brag!) When he was a Jr. in HS - I posted this on the old YAAPS I was so proud - he won a Scholastic Magazine Gold Medal award for writing. His story, out of thousands, was chosen to be published *in* Scholastic as representative of a descriptive essay (or something like that!).

He was NOT reading by the end of second grade. There was no fluency at. all. It was a huge problem for my sister because he was in a "gifted" program (they test via IQ in preK in NYC) - his teacher not only wanted him pulled from the program but held back as well. My sister - who is also a NYC teacher - asked to be given until the end of the summer - she worked on phonic skills for a few weeks and one day, she told me, it just 'clicked'.

I am absol