Can we chat SOTW?

[mudcreekmama]

I'm doing an "enrichment program" for one of my children next year and I've been tempted to get SOTW and see about using it for part of it (I'm staying away from academics and looking for stories to read, handwork, garden projects etc).

I've heard that it is wonderful and really "complete" but also that it is very western-centric. How is it as a resource for non Christian families?

[lunita]

We're doing SOTW II right now, but very loosely. Basically, we're listening to the CD's and checking out books from the library for further reference/learning. We're planning on borrowing the activity book from a friend but we haven't gotten it from them yet.

It isn't totally western centric -- they do talk about India, China and the Americas during the various time periods. It may be somewhat Christian centered, but Susan Wise Bauer really tries to leave doctrinal/belief judgements to the individual families so I don't know how much would be a

[aleutsi]

I'm doing an "enrichment program" for one of my children next year and I've been tempted to get SOTW and see about using it for part of it (I'm staying away from academics and looking for stories to read, handwork, garden projects etc).

I've heard that it is wonderful and really "complete" but also that it is very western-centric. How is it as a resource for non Christian families?

What is SOTW? :smile:

[lunita]

Sorry. Story of the World -- Susan Wise Bauer/Well Trained Mind's 4 year history program. We're doing the second year -- 400-1600 AD. The audio is read by Jim Weiss.

[mudcreekmama]

I have no problem with there being Christian content, but my spiritual perspective is that Jesus was one in a long line of prophets sent by God so I'm concerned about other faith's narrative being presented as "truth" not as simply folk stories - especially when you're looking at ancient history. Have you worked with SOTW 1? How well developed is it in comparison to the Christian Era. I'm interested in the book and the cd's - the Girl gets enough workbook busy work at school :-).

[sarahs]

I have no problem with there being Christian content, but my spiritual perspective is that Jesus was one in a long line of prophets sent by God so I'm concerned about other faith's narrative being presented as "truth" not as simply folk stories - especially when you're looking at ancient history. Have you worked with SOTW 1? How well developed is it in comparison to the Christian Era. I'm interested in the book and the cd's - the Girl gets enough workbook busy work at school :-).

OT, but that is my spiritual perspective too and I am wondering if there is an actual religion that holds that belief or if, like me, you just have your own belief system. :smile:

[mudcreekmama]

You might want to investigate the Baha'i Faith, http://www.bahai.org. :-)

In a nutshell, the purpose of this life on earth is for each individual to develop the spiritual and moral qualities that lie at the core of his or her nature. Bahá'u'lláh referred to the human being as a "mine rich in gems of inestimable value." These "gems" or "Virtues". Humanity has received continual guidance from a loving Creator on how to accomplish it.

Bahá'ís believe that there is only one God, the Creator of the universe. Throughout history, God has revealed Himself to humanity through a series of divine Messengers or Prophets, each has founded a great religion. The Messengers have included Abraham, Krishna, Zoroaster, Moses, Buddha, Jesus, and Muhammad. (9 world religions so far - the Baha'i symbol is the 9 pointed star) This succession of divine Teachers reflects a single historic "plan of God" for educating humanity about the Creator and for cultivating the spiritual, intellectual, and moral capacities of the race. The goal has been to develop the innate noble characteristics of every human being, and to prepare the way for an advancing global civilization. Knowledge of God's will for humanity in the modern age, Bahá'ís believe, was revealed just over one hundred years ago by Bahá'u'lláh, who is the latest of these divine Messengers.



The Unitarian Universalists are accepting of the concept too, rather than being "secular humanists", they are "spiritual humanists".

Both groups offer a lot in the way of Peace Education.

[lunita]

I do have SOTW I, and if you want I can look it over again and post details. I think the critical reviews on Amazon are worth at least considering. They have some grains of truth in them. The "tone" isn't one I would have chosen -- it seems a bit condescending -- but I got over that quickly because the kids really enjoy listening to it in the car and are retaining a fair amount. Also, I have a pretty weak history background, so I can't really give an objective/critical opinion about whether her facts are accurate or her presentation is biased. I do think the people who are critical on Amazon have their own biases and would write an equally or more biased volume if they had to do it themselves - that's not to say that I find SOTW biased (I frankly don't know enough to be sure) but that it doesn't seem to be, in my opinion, but I think every version of history has at least a little spin.

There are a lot of myths/legends told in the book, and they usually have a brief introduction. Some critiques say she doesn't do enough to separate fact and fiction. I'm looking over SOTW I (I don't have the books for II, just the cd's) and the introduction for a the story of the birth and resurrection of Jesus isn't much different from the intros to stories about Anansi and stories from the Odyssey. :dunno:

Oh, and there's a new edition out but most of the reviews on Amazon are about the old version. I have the old one, so I can't say how it has been changed. I just went over there and read through some, and I find it interesting that she is criticized by people who say she missed the whole point of history by not putting God in the center role of everything, and others who criticize her for having a "Theist" world view. To me, that speaks to the fact that she did a fairly good job with the balancing act.

Also, in the full interest of disclosure, we started SOTW I two summers ago and never finished it. My best friend used SOTW II with her homeschooled daughter this year and they didn't end up finishing it either. I'm not sure if we're just easily distracted or if it easy to get bored with it or what. One problem we found is that most other books that we used as references and supplements would deal with a culture in it's totality -- books about Egypt would tell everything there is to know about the whole history of Egypt, for example -- and Egypt is talked about in chapters 2-4, 12 and 13 of Story of the World. It makes sense for her to move away from Egypt for a few chapters and to talk about the other cultures in the world at the time -- Assyria, China, Africa, India -- and then to go back to the New Kingdom of Egypt. Unfortunately, when we were studying the old kingdom of Egypt we read library books that also dealt with the New Kingdom of Egypt and 8 chapters later we weren't interested and going back to those same books. The same thing happens with Rome -- to an even greater extent if you finish SOTW I and go on to volume 2.

[indigo]

My kids found SOTW very painful. LOL. Something in the style of the writing turned them off right from the beginning. They found it very babyish. (And my older one was 7 at the time!!) They just didn't find it engaging in the least. At the time I found some glaring errors that shocked me, because I'm so NOT a history expert. My thinking was that if *I* found those, what was I missing? (I don't remember what they were, though. I vaguely recall that she put Mexico in South America, but I could be mistaken.)

My kids didn't care for the activities either. It sort of felt like busy work for the most part. They liked a few of the more creative ones. I did like the resources listed with each chapter. That was very useful....but, for us, not worth the price of the books.

One benefit of the books is that they do go through history in a chronological order, which is nice because you can see the effect of one thing on another. But I've come to believe that it's not very important to do that...that what's more important is covering concepts in history, and understanding chronology in relation to those concepts...but not necessarily just plodding through time, one civilization at a time.

Oh, and at the time I did feel that there was a Christian bias, but I have absolutely nothing to support that contention because I don't have the books anymore. i just know that I found some very specific things and when we were reading the books I had to sort of always be on guard and give some perspective. Again take that with a grain of salt, because I can't back that up anymore.

[bannanabette]

My kids found SOTW very painful. LOL. Something in the style of the writing turned them off right from the beginning. They found it very babyish. (And my older one was 7 at the time!!) They just didn't find it engaging in the least. At the time I found some glaring errors that shocked me, because I'm so NOT a history expert. My thinking was that if *I* found those, what was I missing? (I don't remember what they were, though. I vaguely recall that she put Mexico in South America, but I could be mistaken.)

My kids didn't care for the activities either. It sort of felt like busy work for the most part. They liked a few of the more creative ones. I did like the resources listed with each chapter. That was very useful....but, for us, not worth the price of the books.

One benefit of the books is that they do go through history in a chronological order, which is nice because you can see the effect of one thing on another. But I've come to believe that it's not very important to do that...that what's more important is covering concepts in history, and understanding chronology in relation to those concepts...but not necessarily just plodding through time, one civilization at a time.

Oh, and at the time I did feel that there was a Christian bias, but I have absolutely nothing to support that contention because I don't have the books anymore. i just know that I found some very specific things and when we were reading the books I had to sort of always be on guard and give some perspective. Again take that with a grain of salt, because I can't back that up anymore.

Yeah, my kids had the same reaction (at least the two older ones - the youngest wasn't of an appropriate age when we tried it). They weren't engaged by the writing or the stories, which is funny because they love history. They did enjoy the activities though, so I usually recommend the activity companion book. And I think chronological history is really important - but like phonics and whole word, I think both approaches need to be provided. Concepts are important but without the chronology it's too easy to draw false conclusions because events aren't judged within their respective timeframes, and vice versa - without being able to link up concepts, you miss the patterns and broader conclusions that you can draw from history. So the boys do both concepts and timelines.

[indigo]

Yeah, my kids had the same reaction (at least the two older ones - the youngest wasn't of an appropriate age when we tried it). They weren't engaged by the writing or the stories, which is funny because they love history. They did enjoy the activities though, so I usually recommend the activity companion book. And I think chronological history is really important - but like phonics and whole word, I think both approaches need to be provided. Concepts are important but without the chronology it's too easy to draw false conclusions because events aren't judged within their respective timeframes, and vice versa - without being able to link up concepts, you miss the patterns and broader conclusions that you can draw from history. So the boys do both concepts and timelines.

Yeah, I think that chronology is important, but I don't think that means that you have to start at the beginning and go forward. Um, maybe that didn't make sense. What I mean is that you can study writing systems. Within that study you can do it chronologically. You'll get a good idea of what came first and so on, but you have that focus on writing systems that ties it all together. Doing a *general* study of civilizations in chronological order just doesn't seem as engaging to my kids.

For instance, C's big thing he wants to study is revolution. So we're going to study a number of revolutions in history and he will learn them within the framework of a timeline. Does that makes sense?

then maybe next he will get really into, I don't know, prison systems. Who knows. And we'd study that in the framework of a timeline. And that would fill in some of the blanks.

I see history as something you study over the course of your life, and you're constantly refining and challenging your understanding and filling in the blanks.

[bannanabette]

Yeah, I think that chronology is important, but I don't think that means that you have to start at the beginning and go forward. Um, maybe that didn't make sense. What I mean is that you can study writing systems. Within that study you can do it chronologically. You'll get a good idea of what came first and so on, but you have that focus on writing systems that ties it all together. Doing a *general* study of civilizations in chronological order just doesn't seem as engaging to my kids.

For instance, C's big thing he wants to study is revolution. So we're going to study a number of revolutions in history and he will learn them within the framework of a timeline. Does that makes sense?

then maybe next he will get really into, I don't know, prison systems. Who knows. And we'd study that in the framework of a timeline. And that would fill in some of the blanks.

I see history as something you study over the course of your life, and you're constantly refining and challenging your understanding and filling in the blanks.

Like I said, we do both. We study different concepts and pull in examples from different eras, but the boys also enjoy the whole evolution of an era as a complete story. They like doing both for different reasons. I think they like to argue and do the back and forth when they discuss concepts, but they like the whole storytelling aspect of studying the events of a specific timeline. Most recently they've been doing the whole pre WWI era because they've been watching Young Indiana Jones, so it's literally been storytelling for them.

I know some kids strongly prefer the SOTW method because they like the "what happens next" aspect, and others like a more topics based approach. I can see why both appeal to kids depending on their personalities.

[indigo]

Like I said, we do both. We study different concepts and pull in examples from different eras, but the boys also enjoy the whole evolution of an era as a complete story. They like doing both for different reasons. I think they like to argue and do the back and forth when they discuss concepts, but they like the whole storytelling aspect of studying the events of a specific timeline. Most recently they've been doing the whole pre WWI era because they've been watching Young Indiana Jones, so it's literally been storytelling for them.

I know some kids strongly prefer the SOTW method because they like the "what happens next" aspect, and others like a more topics based approach. I can see why both appeal to kids depending on their personalities.


Oh, I'm not saying there's anything *wrong* with a chronological approach. Just that I don't think it's necessary to take a "what happens next" approach to world history for kids to get a sense of the chronological relationship between events, people, and times. And when i started with SOTW I was very much convinced that it WAS necessary to do so. (That was kind of what sold me on it.) So it was just an evolution of my thought process to realize, "Nah, you don't have to do it that way."

In the end, what works best is what speaks to the individual kid and parent. Lots and lots of families LOVE SOTW, and I will agree that for very young children it's certainly 100% better than how history is taught in most schools.

[bannanabette]

And when i started with SOTW I was very much convinced that it WAS necessary to do so. (That was kind of what sold me on it.) So it was just an evolution of my thought process to realize, "Nah, you don't have to do it that way."

Oh yeah, there was a lot about The Well-Trained Mind that I really loved and bought into when I read it, and then it came to actually working with my kids and finding that it just wasn't a good fit for them and me figuring out that, hey, that's OK. It turns out there are lots of ways of doing this stuff :D

[gfrach]

My personal perspective on the SOTW and other history is that *all* history is slanted somehow and I tell C that. I offer him many many different resources for history so he can see how one place says one thing and another says it slightly differently and yet another may say it completely differently.

(I vividly remember in college history learning that Teddy Roosevelt had nothing whatsoever to do with San Juan Hill and that it was actually taken by african american soldiers whom they didn't want to give credit to. My approach to history comes a lot from that whole issue.)

SOTW 1 is the only one I've personally read part of and I thought it did a decent job of presenting the pre-Christian era. It's very story-based which is what C loved about it. SOTW 1 is aimed at 1st or 2nd grade level reading.

[Bonny]

what I liked about it was that the color page/other activities held my younger kids attention while I was reading to them plus my 13yo out of one of the many reccomended books for each chapter. I wouldn't have cared to do just the reading fr the chapter book, or just the coloring page, but it seemed like there was more than we could possibly do in each chapter, so there was always something that held each of my kids' attention.

[sarahs]

Thank you! (nt)

[mudcreekmama]

THANK YOU ALL!

So...maybe we'll get the cd's out of the library and check the book for recommendations of other books.

Anyone have any favorites for exploring the ancient world?

[bannanabette]

THANK YOU ALL!

So...maybe we'll get the cd's out of the library and check the book for recommendations of other books.

Anyone have any favorites for exploring the ancient world?

For ancient Greek Myths, we really love D'aulaire's Greek Myths. I enjoyed Augustus Caesar's World by Genevieve Foster. She takes some liberties with ascribing motives to her characters but I thought the writing was pretty good. "Black Ships Before Troy" by Rosemary Sutcliff is very good too (although I don't know how old is the child you're doing this with - you might want to go with a translation of the Illiad and the Odyssey instead of a retelling)

There were some books I read as a young kid that were set in ancient Rome and Egypt that I remember loving, but I don't know what I'd think of them as an adult, but they are "The Forgotten Daughter" by Caroline Dale Snedeker, "Mara, Daughter of the Nile" by Eloise Jarvis McGraw, "The Bronze Bow" by Elizabeth George Speare. Also the Roman Mysteries by Caroline Lawrence are fun (we read the first two). But all of the fiction would depend on the age of the child.

[lunita]

We like to own a good Encyclopedia of World History (we have the Usborne internet-linked one) and then we ended up just looking for what our library system had instead of looking at what Susan Wise Bauer recommended and then checking to see if it was available. This week, we have a stack of library books on Rome.

Two years ago when we did SOTW 1, library had so many AWESOME books about Egypt we could have spent the whole summer just reading those.

[Bonny]

we read several of those this past year and really liked them. I think many of them were ones from the WTM list? I would be happy to pm the Ancients reading lists to anyone if they're interested but don't have the book.

The only one I remember NOT liking is Eagle of the Ninth. We just could. not. get. through that book.

We also watched many documentaries from the library as well. Mostly for my 13yo. I should have previewed them ... a few were SO not appropriate for my 5yo's, especially. But there were, at least in our library system, a lot of really great PBS & History channel dvds.