Sleep issues with the 7 month old...

[Annamarie]

If your 7 month old routinely only got between 35 and 90 minutes of sleep during daylight hours would that bother you? He sleeps about 11 hours at night typically and sometimes a little more. Daytime is another story. He averages around 60 minutes a day most days...occasionally as much as 2 1/2 hours but that is super rare. Its about to drive me to the loony house because I don't have enough time to get school done or even JUST the reading that I do with my kids in that amt of time much less walk on the treadmill, shower, shit, and clean my house. :headonfire: When he is around I really am not able to accomplish anything because he tears up everything he is within reach of. (Truly! I will be grey haired next year because of this kid)

[Bickery]

That's about what I got with both of mine. They would sleep a bit longer when they hit gross motor developmental milestones, but not much longer!

Honestly, I appreciated the long stretches at night -- that's not typically reliable!

[mudcreekmama]

My guy just hit 6 months and while he's scooting places on his tummy, still isn't sitting up on his own without help and he's a night owl then naps half the day away. I have not slept more than 3 hours in a stretch for 8 months now.

Mine have all switched to what you're describing when they get more mobile - and then got really sane (9 hours at night, 2 nice long naps during the day) when they started walking.

And I'm there with you on the tearing stuff up! Our Baby also has the annoying habit of grabbing any glass he sees and quickly pulling it off a surface to spill it. So the kids have switched to aluminum water bottles for ALL their drinks!

My only advise is to stop slinging, and move to a back carrier as much as possible.

If your 7 month old routinely only got between 35 and 90 minutes of sleep during daylight hours would that bother you? He sleeps about 11 hours at night typically and sometimes a little more. Daytime is another story. He averages around 60 minutes a day most days...occasionally as much as 2 1/2 hours but that is super rare. Its about to drive me to the loony house because I don't have enough time to get school done or even JUST the reading that I do with my kids in that amt of time much less walk on the treadmill, shower, shit, and clean my house. :headonfire: When he is around I really am not able to accomplish anything because he tears up everything he is within reach of. (Truly! I will be grey haired next year because of this kid)

[azul99]

If your 7 month old routinely only got between 35 and 90 minutes of sleep during daylight hours would that bother you?

Yes, very much, but as you know I'm a Sleep Fanatic and think that sleep deprivation is the smoking gun wrt many behavioral, physiological and emotional issues.

I recommend Weissbluth's book, _Healthy Sleep Habits, Happy Child_. It saved our lives when DS2 was a baby. FWIW, at that age he was sleeping 11 hours a night (sometimes 12 maybe?) and took two daytime naps totalling ~3 hours I think.

[Annamarie]

He doesn't sleep straight through though, I guess it sounded like he was. He is awake to eat by 5 (or 4 or 2:30 or whenever LOL). At that time, he comes to bed with me so I can go back to sleep. If I get up to feed him, he will be awake again at 6:30 because that is his time to wake up.

[kokoro]

I would also take it very seriously and not accept it as 'normal' but look into as many was as I could to get my baby to sleep more. I have to admit I still have not read the book by Weissbluth. I did read the 'No Cry Sleep Solution' books (both for babies and the one for toddlers which I actually thought was better) and also this other book by Mary Sheedy Kurchinka about sleep that was *awesome*. She is a super big supporter of getting a lot of sleep but not into CIO. I found her book *really* good and very motivating to get more sleep. Good luck!

[Annamarie]

no, I don't think it is normal at all. I joke that he doesn't act like he needs sleep but I know he does.
Here is what happened yesterday. I left at 10 after feeding him to get my hair cut. My MIL rocked him and he slept for 25 minutes.
In the afternoon, I knew it was useless to get him to sleep at our homeschool group so I left a little before 3 and asked that the big kids keep him awake until we got home. They didn't so he fell asleep and woke up on the way inside. I got him out of the bucket seat and rocked him and nursed him. He went back to sleep and then M stomped in yelling at me about an issue between her and D and that was it. He was awake and I was a bitch for the rest of the day. He went to sleep after a bath and nursing around 8. I left to grocery shop at 9 and J said he was awake about 10 minutes later. He rocked him and got him back to sleep and he slept until about 5:00. He slept until around 7 this morning.
So that totals up to 35 minutes of daytime sleep and 11 hours at night.
I will check out some books. I need some kind of advice. I would even try CIO at this point but I'm sure it wouldn't work and would rather do something else if I could first.

[Ahnyx]

It sounds like he might be a baby that requires you to shut down the house, so to speak, for him to get a good nap in.

Could you do that? Have a definite time each day where the older kids are occupied (but really quiet), the lights are off, and the house is completely boring so there's nothing better for him to do than sleep. Maybe even you two contained in a really boring, darkened room if it wouldn't work for the whole house?

I think it's GREAT that he sleeps 11 hours at night and it really doesn't sound like a situation that warrants anything like CIO. Not that I don't think most babies need more total sleep than that, but it really seems like a situation where he could be gently encouraged to sleep more during the day.

I *will* say that I do think that there are some babies that really don't need as much sleep as most and sleep requirements are not a one-size-absolutely-fits-all for anyone. Neither of my kids were like this (thank goodness) but I have known some babies that were otherwise great, healthy, and contented but they just didn't need as much sleep as most other babies. This is purely anecdotal, but they also tended to be babies/toddlers who went on to be remarkably, almost scarily bright. It was almost like they weren't sleeping as much because they were so busy absorbing everything around them. Now, I have also known other babies/toddlers/kids that CLEARLY (well, clearly to me) were not getting enough sleep. It's hard to explain, but it was evident that the lack of adequate sleep just made something seem "off," and that quality was not present in the other babies that just really didn't seem to need that much sleep.

Anyway, I hope you find a solution. I know well that nap time is precious time when you have a baby in the house!

-Melanie
mama to X and G.

[Bickery]

It sounds like he might be a baby that requires you to shut down the house, so to speak, for him to get a good nap in.



I had the same thought.
I have a friend who has stuck with Nap Time in the afternoon for almost 10 years of parenting and it works really well for them. I'll ask her how that's going when I see her this afternoon but I've always admired her ability to refuse all social events in favor of a routine that works so well even past the ages her boys actually sleep during that time.

My kids needed to be home in the afternoon even when they didn't nap or didn't nap much. They would get overstimulated and be cranky all evening if we didn't get home and stay there by 1 pm at the latest.

They really weren't fussy, unhappy kids -- I really do think that some kids just need less sleep. (And they did sleep very well at night, cosleeping, waking maybe a couple times in 12 hours to nurse and go right back to sleep.)

[cinnamon]

It sounds like he might be a baby that requires you to shut down the house, so to speak, for him to get a good nap in.

Could you do that? Have a definite time each day where the older kids are occupied (but really quiet), the lights are off, and the house is completely boring so there's nothing better for him to do than sleep. Maybe even you two contained in a really boring, darkened room if it wouldn't work for the whole house?

I think it's GREAT that he sleeps 11 hours at night and it really doesn't sound like a situation that warrants anything like CIO. Not that I don't think most babies need more total sleep than that, but it really seems like a situation where he could be gently encouraged to sleep more during the day.

I *will* say that I do think that there are some babies that really don't need as much sleep as most and sleep requirements are not a one-size-absolutely-fits-all for anyone. Neither of my kids were like this (thank goodness) but I have known some babies that were otherwise great, healthy, and contented but they just didn't need as much sleep as most other babies. This is purely anecdotal, but they also tended to be babies/toddlers who went on to be remarkably, almost scarily bright. It was almost like they weren't sleeping as much because they were so busy absorbing everything around them. Now, I have also known other babies/toddlers/kids that CLEARLY (well, clearly to me) were not getting enough sleep. It's hard to explain, but it was evident that the lack of adequate sleep just made something seem "off," and that quality was not present in the other babies that just really didn't seem to need that much sleep.

Anyway, I hope you find a solution. I know well that nap time is precious time when you have a baby in the house!

-Melanie
mama to X and G.

I agree with Melanie.

Annamarie, to me, your situation sounds more like Lincoln needs quiet/routine rather than needs CIO. It can be incredibly difficult (and annoying! I'll admit it- I get annoyed when there's something I want to do and Lucy doesn't "cooperate" by taking a nap when I want her to!) to provide that quiet/routine when you have other children and other things you need and want to do. However, IMO if that's what your child needs then it's important to figure out how to achieve it. Some people believe catnaps are OK, and other people believe they're not, and I've never seen any sort of definitive proof that EITHER position is correct, but, I do think that we mamas need to look at what our specific baby is telling us.... and give them what they need, at least as far as sleep goes, even if it means sacrificing some other things.

I really liked the Pantley No-Cry book for babies when Quin was this age. It was really helpful for creating the sleep routine. And now, with Lucy, I am not above bribing Quin with some fun thing to keep him QUIET when the baby is napping. :D That time is sacred, both for her sleep needs and MY need to have some freakin' peace and quiet.

[Annamarie]

OMG! This is him~

I
It was almost like they weren't sleeping as much because they were so busy absorbing everything around them.

He is constantly watching everything happen and it totally seems like he is afraid he will miss the chance to see or do something. If I get him nearly asleep and take my hand off him, 8 out of 10 times he will raise up, get on his knees and start looking around. Then he gets mad when its boring or whatever and starts fussing. GRRR It doesn't help that his eyeballs are as big around as his whole face...and to think he was the kid that we nicknamed "popeye" in the hospital because his eyes were so squinty and one would hardly open. I guess he showed us! :rofl:

[mimama]

both for my DD and myself. I second the recommendation for Weissbluth's book. It really emphasizes routine, and like someone else has already mentioned (can't remember who), cutting out activity if necessary in order to make naptime "work." IME at 7 mos. DD was napping 3-4 hours during the day and 12 hours at night. I know this may be above average but now she is 3 and still naps 2 hours every afternoon and sleeps 11-12 hours every night. One thing I had to do when she was around 6-7 mos. was to start always putting her in a crib to sleep, in her "own" room (she slept with us at night). She would not nap if I were in the room with her... just wanted to play and nurse and look around. When I put her in a crib, in a room by herself, she would whimper a bit (this lasted for maybe 2-3 days), but then she learned to put herself to sleep and started to go right to sleep. After those initial few days she didn't fuss at all. I didn't have to nurse her to sleep, she put herself to sleep after nursing and rocking and being laid down AWAKE. Weissbluth discusses this in his book, too, if I remember correctly.

Good luck! I've cared for a non-napping baby before and I know how hard it can be.

[azul99]

both for my DD and myself. I second the recommendation for Weissbluth's book. It really emphasizes routine, and like someone else has already mentioned (can't remember who), cutting out activity if necessary in order to make naptime "work." IME at 7 mos. DD was napping 3-4 hours during the day and 12 hours at night. I know this may be above average but now she is 3 and still naps 2 hours every afternoon and sleeps 11-12 hours every night. One thing I had to do when she was around 6-7 mos. was to start always putting her in a crib to sleep, in her "own" room (she slept with us at night). She would not nap if I were in the room with her... just wanted to play and nurse and look around. When I put her in a crib, in a room by herself, she would whimper a bit (this lasted for maybe 2-3 days), but then she learned to put herself to sleep and started to go right to sleep. After those initial few days she didn't fuss at all. I didn't have to nurse her to sleep, she put herself to sleep after nursing and rocking and being laid down AWAKE. Weissbluth discusses this in his book, too, if I remember correctly.

Good luck! I've cared for a non-napping baby before and I know how hard it can be.

Nodding my head and agreeing w/mimama here, and my boys both had sleep patterns like what she describes in her post, at that age.

The thing about Weissbluth is that his book is as much about sleep research as it is about helping your child learn to sleep and stay asleep. To appreciate and (IME) be committed to implementing his methods, you have to read his summary of the research. You also have to commit to *real* sleep (in a crib or bed, as opposed to in a stroller), at set times of day.

I feel for you, AnnaMarie. Hang in there.

[mudcreekmama]

"You also have to commit to *real* sleep (in a crib or bed, as opposed to in a stroller), at set times of day"

But how natural is that? I mean if you have ONE child you can stop life and nap with your baby forever ... ponmdering that kind of existence ... but the reality is that once you have several children life just needs to go on ... and isn't that one of the reasons we use slings? My kids, when they reach that stage - and I do think there is a difference between sleep "issues" and a stage - my firstborn had ISSUES - sleep when they're bored enough to drift off. Well they drift off on my back.

What does he say is wrong with that? I'm not talking about falling asleep in a sling at a rock concert, I'm talking about a baby falling asleep to the (boring) rythmn of the household.

[azul99]

"You also have to commit to *real* sleep (in a crib or bed, as opposed to in a stroller), at set times of day"

But how natural is that? I mean if you have ONE child you can stop life and nap with your baby forever ... pondering that kind of existence ... but the reality is that once you have several children life just needs to go on ... and isn't that one of the reasons we use slings? My kids, when they reach that stage - and I do think there is a difference between sleep "issues" and a stage - my firstborn had ISSUES - sleep when they're bored enough to drift off. Well they drift off on my back.

What does he say is wrong with that? I'm not talking about falling asleep in a sling at a rock concert, I'm talking about a baby falling asleep to the (boring) rythmn of the household.

Not sure what you mean by "natural." I'm less concerned about "natural" than I am about healthy habits. And while I can't summarize Weissbluth's entire book here (it's fairly long because it's comprehensive), in answer to your question, in brief, not all sleep is equal. Sleeping in a sling or a stroller will not give a baby the same high-quality sleep that sleeping in a crib will. It just won't. Weissbluth cites various studies and explains sleep cycles to the reader so that, in implementing his recommendations, you know why it matters.

RE life needing to go on, I can't say whether it's realistic for any given family. I never used a sling, at least not for napping - my kids always napped in their cribs or beds. We used the Weissbluth methods for DS#2 (routine naptimes, napping in crib, etc.) and for sure it restricted our schedule (similar to what one of the other moms on this thread about having an enforced afternoon nap time for ten years). IIRC Weissbluth compared getting good sleep to getting good food - we didn't give our boys formula, or later, McDonald's for lunch, so why would we give them sub-standard sleep? Creating and sticking to a routine was worth it, to us, because of the payoff (well-rested kids, and parents!).

Here's a page that gives a good summary of his approach:

http://members.tripod.com/sorensmom-ivil/sleeproblems.html

I also found this:

http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=454462

Just talked to DH and at 7 mos old, DS2 was sleeping for 11-12 hours and napping for 4 during the day.

[azul99]

http://www.familysleep.com/

One of the moms appears to be Sorensmom (who I remember from ParentsPlace.com, years ago). She is the author of the the sleep page in my post (right above this one).

[lunita]

Have you read Our Babies, Ourselves or anything else about James McKenna's sleep research? I haven't read Weissbluth's stuff, but I wonder if what he calls "lower quality sleep" is what James McKenna's would call the natural sleep rhythms of babies -- shorter sleep cycles, more frequent wakefullness, less time spent in sleep stages 3 and 4,etc. He says that solitary sleeping may promote deep sleep before the baby is physiologically prepared for it. http://www.nd.edu/%7Ejmckenn1/lab/articles/B.pdf

Anyway, I'm not sure where I stand in all of this. I just wonder if the same bit of information about infant sleep patterns is being interpreted differently by different camps.

[azul99]

Have you read Our Babies, Ourselves or anything else about James McKenna's sleep research?

I read Our Babies, Ourselves, but wasn't very impressed with it. I don't recall the specifics of why not (it's years ago now).

Weissbluth's stuff is well-researched and it worked for us, so I posted about it for AnnaMarie on this thread, in the hope that it helps her too.

[ADDled]

If your 7 month old routinely only got between 35 and 90 minutes of sleep during daylight hours would that bother you? He sleeps about 11 hours at night typically and sometimes a little more. Daytime is another story. He averages around 60 minutes a day most days...occasionally as much as 2 1/2 hours but that is super rare. Its about to drive me to the loony house because I don't have enough time to get school done or even JUST the reading that I do with my kids in that amt of time much less walk on the treadmill, shower, shit, and clean my house. :headonfire: When he is around I really am not able to accomplish anything because he tears up everything he is within reach of. (Truly! I will be grey haired next year because of this kid)
Honestly? I thought that was normal!

My 10-month-old gets up between 8-9 am.

He *might* catch 30 minutes sometime in the morning, but he might not, too. On my back, or in my arms on the couch.

He naps at around 2 or 3, and it's usually 1 hour 45 minutes. Occasionally more or less time. On the bed (I lay him down and nurse him to sleep, then slip away).

He falls asleep in the evening around 8 or 9 p.m. He's up sometimes to nurse, but I don't count how often, because he's in bed with me, I can't see a clock, and I often don't fully wake up anyway when he nurses.

So I'm figuring he sleeps 12 hours at night, with "nursing breaks" but he doesn't fully awaken during the nursing breaks, and one or two hours during daylight hours.

Until you posted, I didn't feel there was anything abnormal about this sleep schedule. It's actually working well for us, and he's growing and developing on schedule and seems good natured most of the time, so it didn't occur to me to be at all concerned.

[ADDled]

And while I can't summarize Weissbluth's entire book here (it's fairly long because it's comprehensive), in answer to your question, in brief, not all sleep is equal. Sleeping in a sling or a stroller will not give a baby the same high-quality sleep that sleeping in a crib will. It just won't.
I actually totally disagree with you here on this statement (which is OK - we can disagree).

I believe that babies get deeper, higher-quality sleep while pressed up against a warm, possibly moving body, than they will alone in a crib.

I have research to prove it, and I also have lots of anecdotal evidence borne out in my three kids and my friends'/acquaintances' kids.

IOW, Weissbluth's research is fine and dandy, but there is sleep research to the contrary, as well.

I'm all for doing what's working for your kid, and that looks different with different kids in different families. But I strongly disagree that all kids get poorer-quality sleep unless it's sleep alone in a bed or crib. In fact, I believe that for *most* kids (not all) the exact opposite is true. Biology has wired babies to sleep deepest, and relax more completely and let go, when they're pressed up against a warm body. They can't flee or fight, so their only defense against danger is being protected by someone bigger, and they instinctively know that and sleep better. Research has borne this out.

Again, not *all* kids, and the Weissbluth stuff does work for some families, and I'm all for what's getting kids and parents the most sleep. But I would never presume to say that his research is correct or applies across the board for infants.

[ADDled]

Have you read Our Babies, Ourselves or anything else about James McKenna's sleep research? I haven't read Weissbluth's stuff, but I wonder if what he calls "lower quality sleep" is what James McKenna's would call the natural sleep rhythms of babies -- shorter sleep cycles, more frequent wakefullness, less time spent in sleep stages 3 and 4,etc. He says that solitary sleeping may promote deep sleep before the baby is physiologically prepared for it. http://www.nd.edu/%7Ejmckenn1/lab/articles/B.pdf

Anyway, I'm not sure where I stand in all of this. I just wonder if the same bit of information about infant sleep patterns is being interpreted differently by different camps.
I posted above before I read this, but I agree with you Kristy and felt it important to point out.

Babies should not sleep alone in another room. McKenna's research and also the research of Sears (the younger) has shown that babies should not spend much time in deep sleep stages, and that putting them alone and can make it more likely kids already at risk for SIDS will succumb.

It's safest to always have babies sleeping in a room with other adults, and with some noise, even if it's just the breathing of the other sleepers, to keep babies sleeping the way they should and not sleeping too deeply for too long.

Anyway, don't want to have a big debate or anything, but thought it was important enough to bring up here.

[Amylita]

Finn slept much like this at that age, he took 1-2 shorter naps in arms and slept 12ish hours at night (with nursing breaks of course). At 3 he doesn't nap and sleeps about 10-11 hours at night. He shows no signs of sleep deprevation now, nor did he then. I think some babies definitely sleep less. And what Melanie said was interesting to me, while I'm not saying Finn is crazy bright, he is much more verbal and cognitively advanced at this age than my older two were who slept more.

(((Annamarie))) I remember being super frustrated with Finn at that age and the lack of "easy" sleep. I think I too said I would try CIO if I thought it would work (but I didn't and I knew it wouldn't). I know for us it was part of his personality that resolved itself as he grew. That time passes really fast. Maybe its a 3rd baby thing :p

[Annamarie]

He has always started the night off in his own sleeping space and moved to my bed around 5 or so. For naps, he slept in the main living space of the house until around 3 1/2 to 4 months. Now he naps in his bed when he is home.

Thank you all for your help. I need a shower but I will try to answer some other stuff individually later tonight or tomorrow. I'm also dealing with Megan really really really needing positive attention from me and the sleep issues are unconsiously affecting my ability to give to her because I haven't felt like I had anything in me. I'm going to spend some time with her in the morning in the hopes that her love tank can fill up.

[Annamarie]

Lord, I don't need any more of those "3rd baby things." LOL

[karunamayi]

I had the same thought.
I have a friend who has stuck with Nap Time in the afternoon for almost 10 years of parenting and it works really well for them. I'll ask her how that's going when I see her this afternoon if she isn't sleeping! lolololo

[mudcreekmama]

Until you posted, I didn't feel there was anything abnormal about this sleep schedule. It's actually working well for us, and he's growing and developing on schedule and seems good natured most of the time, so it didn't occur to me to be at all concerned.

I agree with you, and I think it is a STAGE not a sleep ISSUE

*I* couldn't sleep last night so I tootled around the net reading up on Weissbluth. So what exactly is different from his approach and Ferber's?

My Baby is 6 months - has started tasting foods but is still pretty well 100% breastfed - I can NOT imagine having him go to bed at 6pm and make him CIO until midnight when I would be "allowed" to nurse him. That is why he wakes - to nurse. Then make him go from midnight to 6? And how exactly would Weissbluth's plan work for ANY child who is in the familybed?

Maybe his approach works with toddlers who are able to go through the night without nursing, but with an infant it just seems to be the same old same old CIO "make em independant, and keep em out of your bed!" thing. I personally don't think that is healthy or natural for infants.

[Annamarie]

well, i know for L, he can very well go a 7-9 hour stretch. the problem i have with forcing him through it is that i get thirsty at night too. i have considered trying some water duing that time but haven't yet...he still seems young. it does stand to reason though that if he has been able to go 8 hours without nursing since the time he was 4-5 months old that he can do it now.
cio for 6 hours doesn't sound pleasant. i guess i need to check out the book asap.

[azul99]

I am getting irritated here. This is not the Debates board; it is the Health board. AnnaMarie asked a question; I have experience in the subject-matter; I tried a given approach and it worked for me. The stuff that I'm posting is not my opinion; it is material I've paraphrased from a research-based book that I read 7+ years ago. I've taken the time to do this because a MOM ASKED FOR HELP.

I was not convinced by Our Babies, Ourselves, and I was convinced by Weissbluth's research, so we used it and it worked for everyone. Since AnnaMarie's looking for a solution, I postd about it. If she wants to give it a whirl, great; if not, then that's fine too.

If you have other approaches that you think will work, then post away. Is it necessary to turn this into a debate?

AM, if you do want add'l information, please send me a PM.

[Annamarie]

I hope I didn't irritate you. I really do want to do something that works. One thing I haven't mentioned is that he and Dawson share a bedroom so his brother is a consideration. Last night something weird happened. At 2:30 he woke up and I couldn't get him to go back to sleep. He nursed a few minutes, I laid him between us, then i got him up and let him nurse another couple of min. to calm him down but he was just wide awake still. I laid him in the crib and did all the patting, stroking and such. He was still wide awake but I turned on his music and slowly walked out and I never heard another peep. It was nice even if it doesn't happen next time.

[ADDled]

I am getting irritated here. This is not the Debates board; it is the Health board. AnnaMarie asked a question; I have experience in the subject-matter; I tried a given approach and it worked for me. The stuff that I'm posting is not my opinion; it is material I've paraphrased from a research-based book that I read 7+ years ago. I've taken the time to do this because a MOM ASKED FOR HELP.

I was not convinced by Our Babies, Ourselves, and I was convinced by Weissbluth's research, so we used it and it worked for everyone. Since AnnaMarie's looking for a solution, I postd about it. If she wants to give it a whirl, great; if not, then that's fine too.

If you have other approaches that you think will work, then post away. Is it necessary to turn this into a debate?

AM, if you do want add'l information, please send me a PM.I'm so sorry, Sally. My intention wasn't to start or contribute to a debate.

I do hate Weissbluth and while I think some of it can work in some cases (like anything) I hate to see parents apply it across the board without taking into account babies' normal sleep rhythms, nursing patterns, etc. So I really felt like I had to post, but I definitely could have done it better and more diplomatically.

I do love you and think you're a fantastic parent, just the one your boys need. You do a great job listening to what you believe the boys need and researching and applying it, rather than just latching onto something because it's in or sounds good or whatever. I didn't mean to imply otherwise. I'm OK disagreeing - hating Weissbluth and loving you :kiss:

[ADDled]

But I have to wonder, yk? I really do believe that lack of GOOD SLEEP causes brain damage (and behavior disorders, and mental illness). And so I wonder about my E. My two kids with "issues".....are my kids who "didn't need much sleep" or...just plain didn't sleep. I always thought that their "issues" were WHY they didn't sleep enough, but now....I really think it was in large part the other way around. And, I don't really think it can be undone.

If I were to have another baby, I think I'd become every bit the sleep "fanatic" that Sally describes herself to be.
I don't disagree. It's hard to know whether bad sleep is caused by issues or is causing the issues. Probably a little of both.

We just have to be careful how we define bad sleep. Infant sleep patterns don't look like those of older children or adults, and they SHOULDN'T - it's not safe for some predispoded infants to be encouraged to sleep like adults, SIDS-wise.

When people are saying "my kid isn't getting a lot of deep sleep" or "my kid is waking to nurse" and defining that as bad-quality sleep that can damage the kid, I think it needs to be looked at more.

And of course the emotions and the sleep deprivation that happens in PARENTS through some of this is so hard because of the way we are often unsupported in this culture as parents of infants.

Trish, I think the sleep issues your kids were having, from what I remember, really WERE sleep issues, you know? Not American culture's idea of the way babies should sleep. I think you, and Sally, and others here, usually know enough, even through the haze and fog of sleep deprivation, whether it's in the realm of normal or not. We yaapsters tend to lean more that way than typical westerners.

And of course, we do the best we can with what we know, and it's usually just fine.

That was more rambly than I'd like LOL, but I hope I got the point across, basically. This job search stuff has me way too busy, and fried! LOL!

[cinnamon]

But I have to wonder, yk? I really do believe that lack of GOOD SLEEP causes brain damage (and behavior disorders, and mental illness). And so I wonder about my E. My two kids with "issues".....are my kids who "didn't need much sleep" or...just plain didn't sleep. I always thought that their "issues" were WHY they didn't sleep enough, but now....I really think it was in large part the other way around. And, I don't really think it can be undone.

If I were to have another baby, I think I'd become every bit the sleep "fanatic" that Sally describes herself to be.

Here's my thing, though: I don't think GOOD SLEEP and co-sleeping or sleeping in a sling are mutually exclusive. What does "GOOD SLEEP" mean, anyway? Is there a standard definition for that? Weissbluth says one thing, McKenna says another. They are BOTH well-respected sleep researchers who conduct scientific sleep research.... and come to different conclusions. Who do we believe?

I consider myself a "sleep fanatic." Naptime and early bedtime are sacred at my house. But I don't think GOOD SLEEP for an infant or toddler means "baby on a bed alone and asleep for two 2 hour naps, and a 12 hour stretch at night". Nor do I think a couple of 20 minute catnaps is GOOD SLEEP for an infant or toddler. But these are just my opinions! When push comes to shove, NEITHER ONE of those options has been *proven* to be the unequivocal best OR worst thing for ALL babies. I think the sleep research on OLDER children (and adults for that matter!) is pretty clear that as a whole, they aren't getting enough sleep at night, but with babies this is a murky issue.

The middle ground *for me* with both of my kids has been to set aside a couple of periods (an hour in the morning, about 2 hours in the afternoon) that are devoted to sleep/rest/quiet. (No, it hasn't been difficult for me to do this even an older child around. My 5 1/2 year is capable of being in his room for that long, without me or the tv to entertain him. And yes, he participates in lots of other activities and playdates.)

However, I'm not comfortable with the "only on the bed, alone" thing so the daytime sleep takes place in my arms or in the sling. I also don't believe that babies and young toddlers "need" a 12 hour or even a 4 or 5 hour unbroken stretch of sleep at night, and so nursing at night is normal, a given for me with an infant. At some point, though, if Lucy is still nursing at night I'll nightwean her without remorse. I KNOW there are parents out there for whom nightwaking is a huge hardship- specifically WRT mental health issues- and I acknowledge their very real need to get sleep by whatever means necessary! But I also think our society has pathologized nightwaking and nightnursing, when in fact it has never been shown to be an across-the-board health hazard for *all* people or even *most* people, or all babies or even most babies.

I'm also a stickler for an early bedtime, because I think 11-12 hours of unbroken sleep is GOOD SLEEP for a kid Quin's age. Again, my opinion.

I do think it is possible to think sleep is important AND recognize the value of babywearing, co-sleeping, nightnursing. They don't have to be mutually exclusive.

[Tammy]

He has always started the night off in his own sleeping space and moved to my bed around 5 or so. For naps, he slept in the main living space of the house until around 3 1/2 to 4 months. Now he naps in his bed when he is home.

Thank you all for your help. I need a shower but I will try to answer some other stuff individually later tonight or tomorrow. I'm also dealing with Megan really really really needing positive attention from me and the sleep issues are unconsiously affecting my ability to give to her because I haven't felt like I had anything in me. I'm going to spend some time with her in the morning in the hopes that her love tank can fill up.

Max has been needing MUCH more of me lately and it seems to be helping when I literally say as I hug, squeeze, kiss his face all over (if he'll let me :p ) "I'm filling up your love tank, love tank, love tank." I am doing this numerous times a day and he is loving it, (even he wants me to believe I'm a dorky goose mom)

[kokoro]

I am getting irritated here. This is not the Debates board; it is the Health board. AnnaMarie asked a question; I have experience in the subject-matter; I tried a given approach and it worked for me. The stuff that I'm posting is not my opinion; it is material I've paraphrased from a research-based book that I read 7+ years ago. I've taken the time to do this because a MOM ASKED FOR HELP.

I was not convinced by Our Babies, Ourselves, and I was convinced by Weissbluth's research, so we used it and it worked for everyone. Since AnnaMarie's looking for a solution, I postd about it. If she wants to give it a whirl, great; if not, then that's fine too.

If you have other approaches that you think will work, then post away. Is it necessary to turn this into a debate?

AM, if you do want add'l information, please send me a PM.

I am sorry you are upset by this thread. I think it is hard to be in the minority opinion as I used to find at my due date board when this subject came up! I agree about the 'our babies, ourselves' book. Personally I wasn't very impressed by it. I still haven't read Weissbluth's but I am very convinced about the supreme importance of sleep for well-being.

[ADDled]

... but I am very convinced about the supreme importance of sleep for well-being.
Just to be clear, I don't think anyone's arguing this point. I'm pretty sure we're all convinced that sleep is of the utmost importance for wellbeing. I think we're merely disagreeing (friendly-like) about WHAT constitutes "good sleep" in a baby.

[kokoro]

Yes, I can see that and that's as far as I'm going into that conversation. lol

[mimama]

I posted about Weissbluth because when I read it, it made sense to me, and when I tried some of his ideas, they worked for our family. As far as the debate between sleeping in a crib, alone vs. co-sleeping, I felt comfortable that we reached a compromise that we were all happy and healthy with: during the day, DD slept in a crib, with normal household noises around... I'd generally check on her 1-2 times during the nap, leave the door open to that room, etc. We did not necessarily "shut down the house" during naptime... she just slept until she was ready to wake up, regardless. During the night, she slept next to me, nursed whenever, etc. We used a combo of sleep styles: co-sleeping at night and "solitary" sleeping during the daytime. I did find that, FOR US, when DD slept in a sling, or in the car, or in the stroller, she did not sleep for as long or get what I felt was the same QUALITY of sleep (this was based on my observations: when she woke from these types of naps, she did not seem as "rested" -- i.e., alert, cheerful, observant...). I have also read _Our Babies, Ourselves_ and I must say, I do not find it entirely convincing. I'll leave it at that. I'm with azul... don't want this to be a debate. I'm just giving some more detail about what worked for our family.

[ADDled]

Yes, I can see that and that's as far as I'm going into that conversation. lol
I can see that you are wise :p

[kokoro]

That's only after years of stupidity. lol

[gfrach]

This was C at that age. We definitely had to shut everything down, even have a blackout shade in his room, for him to nap. And BOY could I tell the difference between when he had napped well and when he hadn't.

[gfrach]

I always thought that their "issues" were WHY they didn't sleep enough, but now....I really think it was in large part the other way around. And, I don't really think it can be undone.


I think it can be both--that the issues can cause/exacerbate sleep problems and that the sleep problems can cause/exacerbate issues.

[Jill]

I posted about Weissbluth because when I read it, it made sense to me, and when I tried some of his ideas, they worked for our family. As far as the debate between sleeping in a crib, alone vs. co-sleeping, I felt comfortable that we reached a compromise that we were all happy and healthy with: during the day, DD slept in a crib, with normal household noises around... I'd generally check on her 1-2 times during the nap, leave the door open to that room, etc. We did not necessarily "shut down the house" during naptime... she just slept until she was ready to wake up, regardless. During the night, she slept next to me, nursed whenever, etc. We used a combo of sleep styles: co-sleeping at night and "solitary" sleeping during the daytime. I did find that, FOR US, when DD slept in a sling, or in the car, or in the stroller, she did not sleep for as long or get what I felt was the same QUALITY of sleep (this was based on my observations: when she woke from these types of naps, she did not seem as "rested" -- i.e., alert, cheerful, observant...). I have also read _Our Babies, Ourselves_ and I must say, I do not find it entirely convincing. I'll leave it at that. I'm with azul... don't want this to be a debate. I'm just giving some more detail about what worked for our family.

That's pretty much EXACTLY how it went in our household with the second and third kids. My first child was and still is a terrible sleeper and i do think it's partly my fault. When I look back I have no idea how I got through her first year without completely losing my mind. I learned a LOT, the hard way. My second child's health issues as a newborn really pushed me out of my comfort zone (apnea, etc) and I am forever thankful that in spite of the fear for her health it forced me to try things I thought would be so horrible and yet in practice, with loving and patient parents, it wasn't at all the nightmare I expected.
I also dislike debating these subjects because there is no reason for me to believe that anyone who is posting at this website would try ANY parenting method with anything but loving and good intentions, and it's one of those "but for the grace of God go I" things for me.
Getting enough quality sleep is absolutely essential and we all have our own interpretations of what that means for our families. In my family that even differs among my own three children.

[Annamarie]

thank you for saying that. it is really agonizing to me to deal with this because my other two are great sleepers now and co-slept as babies. l just doesn't sleep well for a full night in our bed and either do i at this point in my life. i know it might be that i do have to try something that i never saw myself doing before just so i can get some sanity in my day. i can actually deal with the nighttime stuff just fine...its the daytime sleep that is making me crazy.

[jump4joy]

That makes me wonder how in the world I didn't end up with brain damage and behavior disorders and mental illness, LOL. I didn't have GOOD SLEEP until my 40th year of life. My parents can tell you the stories of how poorly I slept (in a crib, no less) as an infant and child. And I've been plagued on and off with insomnia my whole life. I was famous for falling asleep at work as well in the middle of the day. Training for the Ironman is what finally got me to sleep solidly, I just wore myself plumb out. It was weird to finally be able to sleep!

So, I have to say I disagree with this premise. I've had no sleep, bad sleep, poor sleep, and finally now I'm happy to say I have good sleep almost all the time. But at no time have I suffered any of the above disorders. My kids don't sleep much either (surprise, surprise!) and my husband rarely sleeps more than 5 hours a night. My dad didn't sleep much at all, and he's still alive and kicking with no mental disorders either. I think, for whatever reason, some people need more sleep, and some people sleep better than others (even from birth). It's definitely worthwhile to try and help a child sleep better (I sure wish I'd known when Mackenzie was an infant how much his dairy allergy was contributing to his sleep issues, for instance). But I don't think it necessarily causes mental illness (maybe in some cases, but certainly not across the board for non-sleepers) or else my whole family would have such problems.



But I have to wonder, yk? I really do believe that lack of GOOD SLEEP causes brain damage (and behavior disorders, and mental illness)

[jump4joy]

This makes sense to me, too. I've never understood how only crib sleeping or sleeping solitarily could be defined as "good sleep" or as the right thing for babies. It doesn't make any sense that we would've evolved in that way. Human mothers carry their babies cultures all around the world. Surely all those babies aren't sleep-deprived by being slung on their mothers' backs while momma harvests rice or weaves a basket or whatever.

So hey, people can do whatever works for them or for their babies, that's cool. But I will never believe a book that says that sleeping in a crib is the kind of sleep that babies "need". I had one good sleeper and one terrible sleeper and I tend to think that a lot of it is just the individual kid anyways. I've known far too many parents with "terrific" sleep solutions that they were just convinced they implemented on their kids, until the 2nd or 3rd or 4th kid came along who just didn't go with that particular program, and then they realized it was really just that they had kids before who were pretty good sleepers all along.

[Meagan]

I agree with--Cinnamon I think?--that none of these premises have been proven right or wrong so it's all guesses and personal experience at this point. I tend to think all theories/techniques work for some kids and not others.

Out of my kids, Owen is by far the worst nighttime sleeper, and yet he's the one who has the very most structured sleep by far. He naps at exactly the same time every day and takes nice, long, restful naps. He goes to bed at the same time every night...and sleeps like shit. I've tried putting him down in another room, putting him down in my room and moving, putting him down later, putting him down earlier...nothing makes any difference, he still wakes up several times screaming his head off before he settles into his "real" nighttime sleep. It has to change--for crying out loud, he's almost two and a half! At this age, his brothers (who all slept however and wherever they liked) were putting themselves to bed and sleeping all the way through!

But he does seem *rested* and maybe that's the difference between good and bad sleep, yk? His sleep sucks for US, but for whatever reason, it's working for HIM.