Would like advice on what to do. D is having attention issues in school. (long) [Archive]

kokoro

01-28-2010, 09:12 AM

D has been having attention issues in school. He is very bright and one of the oldest in his grade and the work is mostly easy for him except for writing which causes him a LOT of anxiety. During class I recently learned he is just checked out and not listening. This isn't a sudden thing. He had issues with attention in kindergarten and he had anxiety issues last year (he was banging his head on his desk in frustration during writing assignments). But his teacher last year seems to have missed his attention issues for some odd reason. He was assessed formally by the school last year and I flagged attention as a problem and they had a test that showed it to be a problem but he scored *so* low on the test (using a computer) that they disregarded the results and gave a lot of weight to his classroom teacher who said it wasn't an issue. I don't know why she said this. She did have about 8 very hyper boys in her class last year and DS probably got missed in all of that since he tends to be quiet and, when he actually hears instructions, to do what the teacher says. The school's assessment found DS to be off the charts smart in some areas, very bright in most others and average in a couple. Those couple have to do with processing information and writing. He did not qualify for a 504 but everyone was very concerned about his anxiety levels. I have not described all the anxiety issues fully but he was very anxious about writing and a few other things to a level that was concerning to the school and to me (but not to his idiot teacher last year who thought I was 'making excuses' and thought he was head banging to 'get attention'.) They agreed to service him even though he didn't qualify for a 504 officially.

I took DS to a psychiatrist and showed him the school assessment and the concerns his counselor had. The school assessment did *not* talk about attention due to his first grade teacher somehow missing that as an issue. The psychiatrist only spent one hour with us and said that DS was minorly hyperactive but other than that was fine. He did not have anything strong enough to qualify as a diagnosis and he certainly would not medicate DS. I was relieved and then seemingly magically, over the summer all the head banging and anxiety behavior vanished and I thought it might have just been the class he was in for first grade that was the problem. I hoped everything was gone and he was 'normal' and fine.

So, fast forward to this year. DS is in 2nd grade. At conferences his teacher surprised me by telling me DS is mentally checked out during class. I had no idea. I knew he missed directions sometimes because he can hyperfocus but I didn't know he spent most of the day day dreaming and not listening in school. The school psychologist observed him and confirmed this. I went in and saw it for myself (in a normal year I would be volunteering a lot but I was in classes last semester and couldn't be there). DS is getting special services for writing from the wonderful reading teacher because of his anxiety level about writing. This just started a few weeks ago.

The reading teacher is finding that even one on one D has attention issues and that at times he will be totally engaged in what they are doing and suddenly lose his focus. She said this happens a lot and that once he even got up from his chair and started to walk away while she was working with him. She asked him where he was going and he said, "opps". He isn't a wise guy or a child who fools around. He wants to please adults and do the right thing. She has taught a long time and feels he has attention issues.

But he can focus and even hyper-focus in other situations. Since he was a baby he could focus much, much, much longer than books would say is normal for kids his age. He could play chess for 2 hours straight and cry when DH wanted to stop 2 years ago. He read for 2 hours straight the night before last, stopping only to change books when he finished one. He can work on leggo projects for long spreads of time. At our temple he can focus on discussions and participate fully. But the thing about all of these things are that they are all high interest. When things are interesting he can focus.

The school is going to redo the attention assessment and they want to qualify DS for a 504 so that they can continue to service him with the reading specialist because they recognize his anxiety and attention are serious issues. Luckily right now they can service him but if a 504 child comes along DS will get bumped.

I'm also going to take DS back to the psychiatrist after the attention assessment is redone by the school and have him assessed once again with this new info.

I took DS to his counselor last night for the first time since the summer and she agreed with what we are doing. I asked her if all this is leading to medication and she said she felt it was and that she feels we are seeing ADHD. :( I sooooo do not want DS to have ADHD or to need medication. I'm upset by this. I want to do *something* to help him that isn't medication. On the other hand, I know that medication can be something that is really needed in some and if DS really does need it then it is a disservice to him to not give it. Maybe I'm jumping the gun here since we don't even have an official diagnosis but when I read about inattentive ADHD it sounds just like DS. He can hyperfocus on things in which he is interested and he can't focus on things he isn't no matter what.

I am sorry this is so long. I wonder if someone here who has a child with similar issues has any advice for me. I'm feeling over my head and stressed by all this and like I'm failing DS because he has these issues and they are still not taken care of yet.

hamamelis

01-28-2010, 09:26 AM

When you talk about assessments, what did it entail exactly? Was it a full spectrum evaluation with OT, PT, SLP, academic, psych and the like? I think if they haven't done those then they need to, which means you must ask for them. There are other issues that can mirror the ADHD and suck away a kids attention.... for instance DD gets so hyperfocused on what she's trying to decipher hearing that she seems inattentive to other things, but it's because she's just trying to work out what she needs to hear because with the CAPD, ambient noise wrecks her. And with writing, she experiences anxiety because of the tracking problems she has had. Seeing a behavioural optmetrist and getting OT is helping with that. TBH, I think you're worrying too much about what it could be, putting the cart before the horse IRT to ADHD and possibly medicating. I know that your DS may be dealing with something that isn't what she has, but instead trying to give an example of possibilities.

Nancy

01-28-2010, 09:42 AM

TBH, I think you're worrying too much about what it could be, putting the cart before the horse IRT to ADHD and possibly medicating. I know that your DS may be dealing with something that isn't what she has, but instead trying to give an example of possibilities.

Yes, this! I wouldn't even be looking diagnostically at things like adhd, I'd be looking at the other possibilities: dysgraphia definitely sounds likely, as does some type of processing disorder or visual dysfunction.

My son more than likely has inattentive ADD, stealth dyslexia, dysgraphia...but I've never had him diagnosed as I personally feel the labels are self limiting. He does not and never has needed meds and is not in school, so clearly I have the freedom to make those choices, and I do realize you need him to adapt to a classroom situation so don't have that freedom.

If I were you, I would be asking for therapy assessments to see what they can offer, I'd have his vision and hearing assessed (and not the "typical" seeing/hearing but processing specifically), then I'd see where I was at that point.

Can he drink anything caffeinated? You might consider adding a coke (if he can have it) or coffee in the morning as a simple test and see if that helps his focus (google mountain dew hyperactivity).

kokoro

01-28-2010, 09:54 AM

He had a full assessment last year with all of those things and academic as well. What is CAPD?

I am pretty darn sure it is going to turn out to be ADHD because his counselor thinks that is what it is, I read the symptoms and it sounds like *every single symptom* was written with DS in mind (not just most but every single one), and also I forgot to write in my long post above, the head of special ed in the neighboring town who has seen DS a lot at our temple said that he thinks DS looks like he has ADHD (but of course that was unofficial and not based on a formal assessment.

But you are right--I do not have anything official yet. It is very concerning to have the school psychologist and his teacher and his counselor and his reading teacher all flagging attention as a serious issue and to see it with my own eyes, too and to not know what to do about it.

When you talk about assessments, what did it entail exactly? Was it a full spectrum evaluation with OT, PT, SLP, academic, psych and the like? I think if they haven't done those then they need to, which means you must ask for them. There are other issues that can mirror the ADHD and suck away a kids attention.... for instance DD gets so hyperfocused on what she's trying to decipher hearing that she seems inattentive to other things, but it's because she's just trying to work out what she needs to hear because with the CAPD, ambient noise wrecks her. And with writing, she experiences anxiety because of the tracking problems she has had. Seeing a behavioural optmetrist and getting OT is helping with that. TBH, I think you're worrying too much about what it could be, putting the cart before the horse IRT to ADHD and possibly medicating. I know that your DS may be dealing with something that isn't what she has, but instead trying to give an example of possibilities.

A_Marie

01-28-2010, 09:56 AM

Not for nothing but also check for absence seizures. After this year I am learning that hey are misdiagnosed as ADD or ADHD quite often. ((K and D))

kokoro

01-28-2010, 10:00 AM

DS reads at an adult level and has had his vision and hearing assessed and both are normal. He has been to a very good eye doctor who specializes in doing vision therapy and she said he is fine and doesn't have the tracking issues I have. He has also been to a very good ear doctor when he got his ears so filled with wax that he failed the standard ped doc hearing test. They cleaned out his ears and he is totally normal. I would assume they checked hearing again last year at school when they did the full evaluation. DS doesn't have dysgraphia IMO.

I agree that if DS were just at home attention wouldn't be the issue it is in school but I do not have the luxuary of considering homeschooling for him. DS's job is not necessarily secure and I have to put myself in the position to get full time employment. DH would not be able to homeschool DS and if he were home with DH I think DS would be playing computer games all day long every day if he were 'homeschooled' by DH. I wouldn't allow that ever.

He eats natural foods. WE do not do caffeine. I could do a test. I understand, though, that doctors used to believe that ADHD meds only work for people with ADHD but they have found that not to be the case and that they work for many or most people, even those who don't have it.

When I talk to him I have to repeatedly call his attention back to me. He spaces out all the time and eventually even if he weren't in school I think this would be an issue unless he outgrows this.

Yes, this! I wouldn't even be looking diagnostically at things like adhd, I'd be looking at the other possibilities: dysgraphia definitely sounds likely, as does some type of processing disorder or visual dysfunction.

My son more than likely has inattentive ADD, stealth dyslexia, dysgraphia...but I've never had him diagnosed as I personally feel the labels are self limiting. He does not and never has needed meds and is not in school, so clearly I have the freedom to make those choices, and I do realize you need him to adapt to a classroom situation so don't have that freedom.

If I were you, I would be asking for therapy assessments to see what they can offer, I'd have his vision and hearing assessed (and not the "typical" seeing/hearing but processing specifically), then I'd see where I was at that point.

Can he drink anything caffeinated? You might consider adding a coke (if he can have it) or coffee in the morning as a simple test and see if that helps his focus (google mountain dew hyperactivity).

kokoro

01-28-2010, 10:01 AM

Thank you. Can you tell me about them? I will google them, too. I do think when he is staring off he is thinking mostly about stories he likes, tv shows, video games, movies, books, playing with his friend, etc. That's what he tells me, anyway.

Not for nothing but also check for absence seizures. After this year I am learning that hey are misdiagnosed as ADD or ADHD quite often. ((K and D))

Nancy

01-28-2010, 10:01 AM

He had a full assessment last year with all of those things and academic as well. What is CAPD?

I am pretty darn sure it is going to turn out to be ADHD because his counselor thinks that is what it is, I read the symptoms and it sounds like *every single symptom* was written with DS in mind (not just most but every single one), and also I forgot to write in my long post above, the head of special ed in the neighboring town who has seen DS a lot at our temple said that he thinks DS looks like he has ADHD (but of course that was unofficial and not based on a formal assessment.

But you are right--I do not have anything official yet. It is very concerning to have the school psychologist and his teacher and his counselor and his reading teacher all flagging attention as a serious issue and to see it with my own eyes, too and to not know what to do about it.

At the risk of being somewhat offensive, I think many psychologists/teachers automatically point to ADHD, it's sort of the learning diagnosis de jour. I don't personally believe that ALL kids diagnosed with it actually have it, in fact I think most do not. Opinion, yes, but based upon some experience in the field. (and that's not to say that those actually with it aren't helped by diagnosis/meds). But I also personally believe classroom settings make it difficult for the teacher to deal with anything outside the norm, and that is what has led to overdiagnosis, and I do understand that teachers are short of time and assistance, so I am not judging, just pointing out.

CAPD is central auditory processing disorder.

hamamelis

01-28-2010, 10:04 AM

He had a full assessment last year with all of those things and academic as well. What is CAPD?

.

Central Auditory Processing Disorder.... I need to leave for a meeting in a minute, but can get you links later. Before she had the actual testing for it (With a QUALIFIED audiologist that had training in diagnosing, not all audiologists have the training to dx) the psychologist told me that CAPD has a lot of the same symptoms as ADHD and they would not consider ADHD as a dx until the auditory testing was done. Just because it looks like ADHD and has similar symptoms doesn't mean it is and until you get further testing with people that have the experience (auditory and visual processing) I wouldn't write it off as such.

Nancy

01-28-2010, 10:14 AM

DS reads at an adult level and has had his vision and hearing assessed and both are normal. He has been to a very good eye doctor who specializes in doing vision therapy and she said he is fine and doesn't have the tracking issues I have. He has also been to a very good ear doctor when he got his ears so filled with wax that he failed the standard ped doc hearing test. They cleaned out his ears and he is totally normal. I would assume they checked hearing again last year at school when they did the full evaluation. DS doesn't have dysgraphia IMO.

I agree that if DS were just at home attention wouldn't be the issue it is in school but I do not have the luxuary of considering homeschooling for him. DS's job is not necessarily secure and I have to put myself in the position to get full time employment. DH would not be able to homeschool DS and if he were home with DH I think DS would be playing computer games all day long every day if he were 'homeschooled' by DH. I wouldn't allow that ever.

He eats natural foods. WE do not do caffeine. I could do a test. I understand, though, that doctors used to believe that ADHD meds only work for people with ADHD but they have found that not to be the case and that they work for many or most people, even those who don't have it.

When I talk to him I have to repeatedly call his attention back to me. He spaces out all the time and eventually even if he weren't in school I think this would be an issue unless he outgrows this.

Testing hearing does not test ability to understand/process hearing. That's what CAPD is about.

Reading at an adult level does not mean much other than he doesn't have "typical" dyslexia, my son has been reading at an adult level since about 3rd grade and I still believe he has a form of dyslexia that includes dysgraphia. The reason I pointed to dyslexia was his writing difficulties. Is he a good speller?

http://mislabeledchild.com/html/Library/DyslexiaReading/Stealth_dyslexia.htm

And just as an aside, I purposely did not bring up homeschooling, I do realize that not everyone can or wants to, and I wasn't suggesting it in my prior post. I was actually being supportive in that I did realize that you needed to work within the school setting and needed a diagnosis.

One more antectdotal (yes I misspelled that) piece of information: I know several children IRL with similar severe allergy issues as your son, almost identical in fact. ALL of them have a form of dyslexia. I just find that a fascinating bit of information, and I have often wondered how it fits into the picture.

kokoro

01-28-2010, 10:21 AM

He is an excellent speller. I'm not so it amazes me but he spells things easily without really studying and loves words and wants to know what the mean. I would think they did that type of hearing test on his at the school last year. I know they were trying to rule out processing issues. Am I wrong to think the school would have done that type of hearing test as part of a full 504 evaluation? I remember they decided to do "the works" to rule out everything else that could be causing DS's anxiety and difficulty writing.

Oh, also, he can write well when he isn't in a testing situation but he does require scaffolding and extra support to do test-type answers even when he isn't being tested. *I* think he comprehends very well when we read at home. The reading teacher is checking this. I think for some reason writing is hard for him and we aren't sure which was the cause and effect go. The reading teacher is trying to figure out if his anxiety makes it hard for him to write and if he mentally checks out when he gets overwhelmed by anxiety or if the fact that writing is hard makes him anxious, or some other combo.

I do not think he is dyslexic or that he has dysgraphia.

Testing hearing does not test ability to understand/process hearing. That's what CAPD is about.

Reading at an adult level does not mean much other than he doesn't have "typical" dyslexia, my son has been reading at an adult level since about 3rd grade and I still believe he has a form of dyslexia that includes dysgraphia. The reason I pointed to dyslexia was his writing difficulties. Is he a good speller?

http://mislabeledchild.com/html/Library/DyslexiaReading/Stealth_dyslexia.htm

And just as an aside, I purposely did not bring up homeschooling, I do realize that not everyone can or wants to, and I wasn't suggesting it in my prior post. I was actually being supportive in that I did realize that you needed to work within the school setting and needed a diagnosis.

kokoro

01-28-2010, 10:26 AM

Well, no one was saying it at first and we looked under every rock we could so far. I agree that ADHD is way over diagnosed. I know this is a fact. I sat next to a doctor once who told me for every 100 kids who came to her with a "diagnosis" from the school only one actually had ADHD. However, his counselor feels that is what he most likely has. She and I hope he will outgrow it but she thinks we that's what it is and that medication is quite possibly in DS's future. She is not one to quickly judge this. She is VERY good.

OK, CAPD--that was ruled out, then. The kindergarten teacher thought that was what it *might* be so they checked for that last year during the assessment.

I would NEVER have thought it was ADHD because he isn't what *I* thought ADHD is but when *I*, read the list of symptoms and see he has them ALL it makes me think that that is likely what he has.

I do hope you are right. I don't want it to be that. But I think that is what it is. I see how this is affecting him in school and it is bad. He feels like a bad boy over and over all day when he realizes his attention hasn't been where it should have been. I don't want that for him. Also, he is missing a LOT. He is so smart that even missing things he can kind of keep up with a lot of work this year but as he gets older that won't be the case.

The thought of medicating really bothers me, though. I would not jump into that. Of course, he doesn't even have a diagnosis yet, either. I hope I'm totally wrong and it is something else that doesn't require medication or that he will just outgrow this and it is immaturity.

At the risk of being somewhat offensive, I think many psychologists/teachers automatically point to ADHD, it's sort of the learning diagnosis de jour. I don't personally believe that ALL kids diagnosed with it actually have it, in fact I think most do not. Opinion, yes, but based upon some experience in the field. (and that's not to say that those actually with it aren't helped by diagnosis/meds). But I also personally believe classroom settings make it difficult for the teacher to deal with anything outside the norm, and that is what has led to overdiagnosis, and I do understand that teachers are short of time and assistance, so I am not judging, just pointing out.

CAPD is central auditory processing disorder.

kokoro

01-28-2010, 10:31 AM

So, you think the school wouldn't have done a good job with testing for that and I should take him to a qualified audiologist?

I googled it just now and some of the things sound like DS but some don't. I will speak to the school psychologist about it.

I really think it is an inattention issue rather than an auditory processing one but maybe it is CAPD. It is certainly worth checking and making darn sure either way! Thanks so much!

Central Auditory Processing Disorder.... I need to leave for a meeting in a minute, but can get you links later. Before she had the actual testing for it (With a QUALIFIED audiologist that had training in diagnosing, not all audiologists have the training to dx) the psychologist told me that CAPD has a lot of the same symptoms as ADHD and they would not consider ADHD as a dx until the auditory testing was done. Just because it looks like ADHD and has similar symptoms doesn't mean it is and until you get further testing with people that have the experience (auditory and visual processing) I wouldn't write it off as such.

Artemis

01-28-2010, 10:34 AM

Yes, and to put in my 2 cents here. That is extremely unprofessional of pychologists and counselors, and even risking of a license, to tell someone whom you haven't done a full assessment on that they have a particular diagnosis or to tell a relative of theirs they might or do have a particular diagnosis. It really makes me sick how some psychologists, counselors, abuse their knowledge and expertise this way. There are currently several in my state who are having their licenses suspended for doing just that. So frustrating. Professionals are not lay people who can just go around and tell people, "oh, I think you child has adhd" because their opinion holds the weight of a professional. Therefore, before they can say as much, they must do a full evaulation and assessment.

DD has visual processing issues and she often looks lke an ADHD Inattentive type child. There are many other things that mimic ADHD. Anxiety is one of those.

lunita

01-28-2010, 10:45 AM

indigo

01-28-2010, 10:59 AM

Do you think he'd act the same way in a class that was challenging for him? If he reads at an adult level and is also probably gifted spatially (the chess stuff), that seems like a pretty good reason to learn to zone out in second grade. :dunno: I mean, it could still be a problem, how does one separate "uninterested in paying attention" and "unable to pay attention"?

Speaking of this, when C was in 2nd grade he explained to me why he never finished the work they gave him. (Seriously, NEVER finished a work plan.) He said, "It's so easy that I don't have to think. So then my brain starts listening to what's happening across the room and I can hear every single thing and that's more interesting." But when they gave him HARD work he never had an attention problem. He was having enough problems in school (this is when he was looking like he had OCD - he was obsessively counting all the time) and the psychologist said that he did NOT have OCD or ADD or ADHD. But that he needed....harder work. She said that his brain was so utterly unengaged that it was a huge job for him, as a little kid, to focus on the work. So part of the remedy was for him to have much harder work, and another part was for him to learn some exercises to calm down his brain.

Just sharing this in case there are any similarities.

(And for the record the school wasn't equipped to meet this need. We tried for 2 more years before taking him out.)

kokoro

01-28-2010, 11:00 AM

I think it happens all day long, even at home when he is relaxed. I do not know the rules of your profession but i have taken D to this woman since over a year ago. I have asked her repeatedly what she thought I should do and what DS has. That's why I took him to her--to figure out what is going on with him and what he has. She repeatedly told me until recently that she can't say and that I need to see a psychiatrist to evaluate him. I pushed and asked her what it *could* be and it even then at first she didn't say. She finally did say after *months* a few possibilities. It is only the most recent visit last night when she told me she thinks given the new info that DS is checked out much of the day and even when working one on one and seemingly engaged that he checks out, etc and that all of us are seeing this that she told me what she thinks. She has certainly not pushed this and if anything I pushed her to tell me. I like her and I think she is very good at her job.

Yes, and to put in my 2 cents here. That is extremely unprofessional of pychologists and counselors, and even risking of a license, to tell someone whom you haven't done a full assessment on that they have a particular diagnosis or to tell a relative of theirs they might or do have a particular diagnosis. It really makes me sick how some psychologists, counselors, abuse their knowledge and expertise this way. There are currently several in my state who are having their licenses suspended for doing just that. So frustrating. Professionals are not lay people who can just go around and tell people, "oh, I think you child has adhd" because their opinion holds the weight of a professional. Therefore, before they can say as much, they must do a full evaulation and assessment.

DD has visual processing issues and she often looks lke an ADHD Inattentive type child. There are many other things that mimic ADHD. Anxiety is one of those.

kokoro

01-28-2010, 11:02 AM

kokoro

01-28-2010, 11:04 AM

Thank you. That could be it, too. But I see the inattention all day long, too. I do think he certainly isn't being challenged. He is doing this one timed math test every day and at first he was getting 47 out of 50 and then 48 and he was excited and then he finally got 50 out of 50 which was the goal but now they are STILL doing the same test every day and he is getting 23 because his mind wanders off. I am going to speak to them about this and have talked about this topic to all of them multiple times. Thank you very much.

Speaking of this, when C was in 2nd grade he explained to me why he never finished the work they gave him. (Seriously, NEVER finished a work plan.) He said, "It's so easy that I don't have to think. So then my brain starts listening to what's happening across the room and I can hear every single thing and that's more interesting." But when they gave him HARD work he never had an attention problem. He was having enough problems in school (this is when he was looking like he had OCD - he was obsessively counting all the time) and the psychologist said that he did NOT have OCD or ADD or ADHD. But that he needed....harder work. She said that his brain was so utterly unengaged that it was a huge job for him, as a little kid, to focus on the work. So part of the remedy was for him to have much harder work, and another part was for him to learn some exercises to calm down his brain.

Just sharing this in case there are any similarities.

(And for the record the school wasn't equipped to meet this need. We tried for 2 more years before taking him out.)

sarahs

01-28-2010, 11:09 AM

Yes, this! I wouldn't even be looking diagnostically at things like adhd, I'd be looking at the other possibilities: dysgraphia definitely sounds likely, as does some type of processing disorder or visual dysfunction.

My son more than likely has inattentive ADD, stealth dyslexia, dysgraphia...but I've never had him diagnosed as I personally feel the labels are self limiting. He does not and never has needed meds and is not in school, so clearly I have the freedom to make those choices, and I do realize you need him to adapt to a classroom situation so don't have that freedom.

If I were you, I would be asking for therapy assessments to see what they can offer, I'd have his vision and hearing assessed (and not the "typical" seeing/hearing but processing specifically), then I'd see where I was at that point.

Can he drink anything caffeinated? You might consider adding a coke (if he can have it) or coffee in the morning as a simple test and see if that helps his focus (google mountain dew hyperactivity).

I was also thinking dysgraphia as my oldest has it. And also probably some inattentive ADD issues. We had a private full evaluation by a psychologist when she was in 4th grade as a result of issues that surfaced in 3rd grade. Honestly, I wish we had done it sooner for her. It was private because DD is at a private school and they do not have the same obligation to provide the evaluation and appropriate interventions like a private school. Luckily they were very open to working with us on a learning plan for DD and she is doing very well now, even with writing. Things take her longer but she does well.

It sounds like he is getting some writing support which may be very similar to what the interventions were for DD.

But mostly what I want to say is, why does the ADHD diagnosis upset you more than these other diagnoses? No matter what, your son is way more than a label. But getting your hands on a diagnosis and a plan, one which may include meds, will give you a way to help him and give him relief from something that is probaby causing him anxiety. My guess is that he knows something is off, that he knows he is different. And having that affirmed can be very comforting for a kid. "Oh, I really am different. And that's OK and this can help me focus and I can still be myself." It sounds like he is already experiencing anxiety around school and I really think the sooner that can be addressed the better.

The kids I know on meds are not medicated zombies, they are happier versions of themselves. Its not at all unusual for a child to be both very smart/talented and have learning differences. I think getting a diagnosis can help the adults around him support him in meeting his full potential.

Artemis

01-28-2010, 11:23 AM

I was referring to the other professionals you know who have casually mentioned it to you, not to his own counselor.

Artemis

01-28-2010, 11:30 AM

He may very well have adhd, but he may not. I don't have advice other than to continue to rule out other things it could be. I don't know that medication is always necessary for adhd. There are behavior specialists who can help with adhd as well as adhd coaches. I diagnosis may help him get additional services or allow for special accomodations. I do understand how hard this is because I've been turning over every rock myself trying to help dd with certain issues.

kokoro

01-28-2010, 11:30 AM

Thank you. I appreciate your post a lot. I do find the idea of ADHD upsetting only because of the medication aspect. I do not want him to need to medication. Of course, you are right that if he does need it and it would help him feel great that would be wonderful but a lot of me feels that his 'problem' is more a construct of modern life and that if we were living as humans did in the past he wouldn't be seen as a 'problem' so it doesn't feel right or good to have to medicate if that is the case. Again, I know I'm jumping the gun as we don't have a diagnosis yet anyway but I think this is where we are heading.

If it does come to pass I will have to learn to accept it. Yes, DS is much more than whatever is causing this stuff. Much.

I was also thinking dysgraphia as my oldest has it. And also probably some inattentive ADD issues. We had a private full evaluation by a psychologist when she was in 4th grade as a result of issues that surfaced in 3rd grade. Honestly, I wish we had done it sooner for her. It was private because DD is at a private school and they do not have the same obligation to provide the evaluation and appropriate interventions like a private school. Luckily they were very open to working with us on a learning plan for DD and she is doing very well now, even with writing. Things take her longer but she does well.

It sounds like he is getting some writing support which may be very similar to what the interventions were for DD.

But mostly what I want to say is, why does the ADHD diagnosis upset you more than these other diagnoses? No matter what, your son is way more than a label. But getting your hands on a diagnosis and a plan, one which may include meds, will give you a way to help him and give him relief from something that is probaby causing him anxiety. My guess is that he knows something is off, that he knows he is different. And having that affirmed can be very comforting for a kid. "Oh, I really am different. And that's OK and this can help me focus and I can still be myself." It sounds like he is already experiencing anxiety around school and I really think the sooner that can be addressed the better.

The kids I know on meds are not medicated zombies, they are happier versions of themselves. Its not at all unusual for a child to be both very smart/talented and have learning differences. I think getting a diagnosis can help the adults around him support him in meeting his full potential.

hamamelis

01-28-2010, 11:31 AM

OK, CAPD--that was ruled out, then. The kindergarten teacher thought that was what it *might* be so they checked for that last year during the assessment.

Nope, you cannot rule out CAPD if he wasn't assessed by someone that has the training. Specifically with an audiologist that does the right tests. This is not something that most schools can test for based on the reading I've done. The evaluation she had (with the audiologist) was about 2 hours long, which included some short breaks in-between tests. Checking during the assessment is very differnt than the actual evaluation with someone that has specific training. (think allergist vs general practice here, as an example for allergies)

kokoro

01-28-2010, 11:31 AM

Oh, I thought you were saying she shouldn't have said what she said to me. Thanks.

I was referring to the other professionals you know who have casually mentioned it to you, not to his own counselor.

kokoro

01-28-2010, 11:32 AM

Would you please list the other things that are often mistaken or are similar to ADHD if you have time? thank you.

He may very well have adhd, but he may not. I don't have advice other than to continue to rule out other things it could be. I don't know that medication is always necessary for adhd. There are behavior specialists who can help with adhd as well as adhd coaches. I diagnosis may help him get additional services or allow for special accomodations. I do understand how hard this is because I've been turning over every rock myself trying to help dd with certain issues.

kokoro

01-28-2010, 11:33 AM

Thank you. So, how do I find an audiologist who can do this type of testing? I guess I could call the children's hospital and ask them.

Nope, you cannot rule out CAPD if he wasn't assessed by someone that has the training. Specifically with an audiologist that does the right tests. This is not something that most schools can test for based on the reading I've done. The evaluation she had was about 2 hours long, which included some short breaks in-between tests. Checking during the assessment is very differnt than the actual evaluation with someone that has specific training. (think allergist vs general practice here, as an example for allergies)

Artemis

01-28-2010, 11:41 AM

Many have been listed already. Boredom due to high IQ/giftedness, specific learning disorder like dysgraphia, dyslexia, etc, anxiety, depression, CAPD, Visual Processing Issues (we just found this out and it answers a lot for my dd), absence seizures, ptsd, grief and bereavement, environmental/family issues, allergies (I know you are already on top of this one), medical issues or other medication side effects...those are what I can think of off the top of my head.

kokoro

01-28-2010, 12:08 PM

Thank you. The school psychologist and I are questioning if it is boredom due to high IQ/work being too low. I don't think it is possibly disgraphia or dyslexia. He does have anxiety and the reading teacher is looking to see if she sees a link between the anxiety and the spacing out as a way to self-sooth but I see him spacing out when I don't think he is anxious. He doesn't have depression. I'm going to check on getting him evaluated for CAPD but I do not think that is it as he only has some but not most of the symptoms. I do not think it could be visual processing but will read about that. I don't know much about absence seizures but I don't think it is ptsd, grief or bereavement, family issues or allergies. He isn't on any other type of medication.

I will look into whether he is just bored, if anxiety could be causing all this, look into getting him evaluated to rule out CAPD and read about visual processing.

*Thank you very much!*

Many have been listed already. Boredom due to high IQ/giftedness, specific learning disorder like dysgraphia, dyslexia, etc, anxiety, depression, CAPD, Visual Processing Issues (we just found this out and it answers a lot for my dd), absence seizures, ptsd, grief and bereavement, environmental/family issues, allergies (I know you are already on top of this one), medical issues or other medication side effects...those are what I can think of off the top of my head.

hamamelis

01-28-2010, 12:16 PM

http://www.ldonline.org/ might be a good place to get other ideas too.

lunita

01-28-2010, 12:25 PM

I do wonder about this and the school psychologist is wondering about it, too. But that is also part of the type of ADHD that *I* think it sounds like he has. Normal people *can* pay attention t things even if boring but DS doesn't seem to be able to do so even a little bit. I am pushing them to give him higher level work and the school psychologist is doing so, too. I don't know the answer to your question, though, and have the same question myself. Thank you.

Normal people? But, in the timed test, for example, he DID pay attention when he needed to. He CAN pay attention to books he's interested in, chess, etc. etc. I know people with adhd also are able to hyperfocus, so that can be part of it I guess. But I guess I think there's a difference in what a mature adult can make themselves do IRT boring and unengaging tasks, and what an immature *normal* little boy can do.

I relate at least a little bit personally and that's coloring my POV. I could probably get an ADD/inattentive diagnosis if I tried, and every once and a while I wish I *could* medicate my spaciness away. And I probably could. But most of the time my quirks and disorganization don't get in the way of my functioning, and I don't think that the benefits would be worth the side effects of meds in my case. There are a lot of coping skills/mechanisms and various practical supports that I can use to function better. I'm not sure how I'd feel about it if I were my own child. :)

I do have to make myself hyperfocus when I want to really study for something academic -- and that often means some self medication with caffeine, in addition to finding a spot totally free of distractions (I like library cubicles.)

kokoro

01-28-2010, 12:30 PM

Well, I am not an expert but I was convinced DS couldn't have it because he can hyperfocus on things and always has been abel to hyperfocus but then I read that that can be a sign of it--being able to hyperfocus on things of interest but not focus on things that aren't interesting. I can tell you for sure that DS stands out in any case. If you saw him in the classroom you would see he stands out for inattention. I for sure want to figure out the cause--boredom, or ADHD or whatever it might be. I"m not *trying* to get him a diagnosis of ADHD. I'm trying to help him because he is stressed and not catching much of any instruction during school. I don't want that for him. I hope it is just he is bored. I do not think that is all of it, though.

Normal people? But, in the timed test, for example, he DID pay attention when he needed to. He CAN pay attention to books he's interested in, chess, etc. etc. I know people with adhd also are able to hyperfocus, so that can be part of it I guess. But I guess I think there's a difference in what a mature adult can make themselves do IRT boring and unengaging tasks, and what an immature *normal* little boy can do.

I relate at least a little bit personally and that's coloring my POV. I could probably get an ADD/inattentive diagnosis if I tried, and every once and a while I wish I *could* medicate my spaciness away. And I probably could. But most of the time my quirks and disorganization don't get in the way of my functioning, and I don't think that the benefits would be worth the side effects of meds in my case. There are a lot of coping skills/mechanisms and various practical supports that I can use to function better. I'm not sure how I'd feel about it if I were my own child. :)

I do have to make myself hyperfocus when I want to really study for something academic -- and that often means some self medication with caffeine, in addition to finding a spot totally free of distractions (I like library cubicles.)

hamamelis

01-28-2010, 12:41 PM

Well, I am not an expert but I was convinced DS couldn't have it because he can hyperfocus on things and always has been abel to hyperfocus but then I read that that can be a sign of it--being able to hyperfocus on things of interest but not focus on things that aren't interesting. I can tell you for sure that DS stands out in any case. If you saw him in the classroom you would see he stands out for inattention. I for sure want to figure out the cause--boredom, or ADHD or whatever it might be. I"m not *trying* to get him a diagnosis of ADHD. I'm trying to help him because he is stressed and not catching much of any instruction during school. I don't want that for him. I hope it is just he is bored. I do not think that is all of it, though.

I would say that if you're not satisfied with the schools evaluations that you can push for outside evaluations. And that's going to mean you need to know your rights and push for it, because IME, the district didn't budge with anything until they got some very strongly worded letters. Our insurance didn't cover the CAPD testing, but when I pushed the school district, because they recommended it, they contracted with the hospital that did the testing. As I understand it, and someone correct me if needed- If they ask for it they are required to fund it. If you don't want to push it with them, you can go through your own insurance, but be prepared to pay out of pocket.

As to finding someone that does testing- just call the audiology dept of your local hospital and ask them if they have someone that can test for Auditory Processing Disorders there, or if they can provide you with a contact of someone that does. The children's hospital might be a good place to start.

Artemis

01-28-2010, 12:41 PM

This is my dd to a T...seriously EXACTLY how she explained her inability to focus on easy tasks. She'll do them though because it causes her much anxiety to just not do them, but it takes her FOREVER. On stuff that is harder for her, she's done much more quickly. Oh, and school is in no way prepared to address this for her either, but not sure what to do about that in our current financial situation. :-(

Kim

01-28-2010, 08:18 PM

kokoro

01-28-2010, 08:30 PM

D didn't have any fine motor delays but pretty much the rest sounds just like him. HE also had sensory issues--high volume, texture, smell, how things feel on his skin and things touching his neck. D also goes through topics that he stays on a long time like your son. He has been into sharks for about 3 years now and is starting to move onto a new topic but he read all the books in the library on sharks and when he ran out read related books about whales, rays and dolphins.

I will check out those behavior ratings scales online. Thank you!

Yes, if the end result is what you have then it is worth it. I will have to see what the psychiatrist says. I just want him to be a happy child who feels good about himself.

L, I just chuckled and asked the screen if you have read anything I've written about my oldest ever, lol.

Anxiety--off the chart, panic attacks by age 3.5 years
Hyperactivity--moderate
Inattentiveness--moderate to high
Fine motor delays-- moderate to high, OT for 3 years and is now in normal range
Sensory Defensive-- high for volume level, texture, and smell
Hyperfocused-- he can read or work on his particular interest for hours; he has gone through a series of content areas that he exhausts by reading, researching, building models, creating diagrams, writing stories, etc--it literally consumes several years before he moves on to another topic.

Do a parent Vanderbilt or Conners Behavior Rater--there are several parent raters online for ADHD.

My kid is awesome. He was not eager to please, unlike your DS. He was irritable and agitated and prickly. He was impulsive and reactive. Today with all of the support we've provided him (meds included but not all it took), he's this great, articulate, responsible, managed, self-controlled, affectionate, HAPPY boy. I would never have believed it and, thought it was painful for me to do, I have to admit that medication was a big piece for him. There's only so much top-notch parenting can do if the child is too anxious and wired up to let it shine through.

You know, I really think that we needed meds for our son and it wasn't just to get him to adapt to the classroom. It was because his life was so hard for him everywhere.

kokoro

01-28-2010, 09:04 PM

I think the teacher will rate him the same and probably much higher than I did for inattentiveness.

L, I just chuckled and asked the screen if you have read anything I've written about my oldest ever, lol.

Anxiety--off the chart, panic attacks by age 3.5 years
Hyperactivity--moderate
Inattentiveness--moderate to high
Fine motor delays-- moderate to high, OT for 3 years and is now in normal range
Sensory Defensive-- high for volume level, texture, and smell
Hyperfocused-- he can read or work on his particular interest for hours; he has gone through a series of content areas that he exhausts by reading, researching, building models, creating diagrams, writing stories, etc--it literally consumes several years before he moves on to another topic.

Do a parent Vanderbilt or Conners Behavior Rater--there are several parent raters online for ADHD.

My kid is awesome. He was not eager to please, unlike your DS. He was irritable and agitated and prickly. He was impulsive and reactive. Today with all of the support we've provided him (meds included but not all it took), he's this great, articulate, responsible, managed, self-controlled, affectionate, HAPPY boy. I would never have believed it and, thought it was painful for me to do, I have to admit that medication was a big piece for him. There's only so much top-notch parenting can do if the child is too anxious and wired up to let it shine through.

You know, I really think that we needed meds for our son and it wasn't just to get him to adapt to the classroom. It was because his life was so hard for him everywhere.

kinsey

01-29-2010, 10:46 AM

L, I just chuckled and asked the screen if you have read anything I've written about my oldest ever, lol.

Anxiety--off the chart, panic attacks by age 3.5 years
Hyperactivity--moderate
Inattentiveness--moderate to high
Fine motor delays-- moderate to high, OT for 3 years and is now in normal range
Sensory Defensive-- high for volume level, texture, and smell
Hyperfocused-- he can read or work on his particular interest for hours; he has gone through a series of content areas that he exhausts by reading, researching, building models, creating diagrams, writing stories, etc--it literally consumes several years before he moves on to another topic.

Do a parent Vanderbilt or Conners Behavior Rater--there are several parent raters online for ADHD.

My kid is awesome. He was not eager to please, unlike your DS. He was irritable and agitated and prickly. He was impulsive and reactive. Today with all of the support we've provided him (meds included but not all it took), he's this great, articulate, responsible, managed, self-controlled, affectionate, HAPPY boy. I would never have believed it and, thought it was painful for me to do, I have to admit that medication was a big piece for him. There's only so much top-notch parenting can do if the child is too anxious and wired up to let it shine through.

You know, I really think that we needed meds for our son and it wasn't just to get him to adapt to the classroom. It was because his life was so hard for him everywhere.

This sounds a lot like my DS (I have thought this before, based on things you've shared about him). We are beginning some evaluations for him - the initial assessments his teacher and I filled out suggested that she and I are seeing the same thing (from a different perspective, of course). He ranked low on anxiety on these assessments, but when his counselor and I looked at the questions leading to that low rating, we found his anxiety is being expressed in different ways. But we do still feel there is some anxiety at work there. The assessments also leaned toward innattentive-type ADD (which I also leaned toward, in my own assessment....).

So far, his school has been fantastic as far as working with him in the classroom, his teacher is fantastic and really looking out for him. The (male) art and PE teachers, and school counselor, all pull him out of the classroom for some one-on-one male time, which is certainly lacking. DS loves art, so that's good for him.

All that isn't enough, though. DS is not willing to please, and he'll ignore directions (sometimes I really think he does *not* hear them, but sometimes he does, and just doesn't want to stop what he's doing for someone else's agenda....understandable, but not the way the world works lol).

We're scheduling a meeting w/his (non-school) counselor/therapist, and the school personnel, to decide what our next step will be, what the school will evaluate for, what I need to look at outside the school's scope, etc.

I was leery of any suggestion of medication, but there hasn't been any. *I* am much more open to it, having finally started an anti-depressant myself, and seeing what a difference it can make. If medication ends up being recommended, I am open to trying it for DS. He needs help, and what we're doing so far isn't cutting it. It's so hard to see a little dude having such a rough time....but I can remember feeling similar stuff, just being more willing to please and more aware of social rules/restrictions. So, while DS may just ignore the instructions to put his book down and get his math out b/c he is not interested in the math, *I* would have done the math quickly so I could get back to my reading. DS isn't enough of a "go-along" type of kid to do that.

*sigh* This is hard stuff, but I'm so glad to read your updates, Kim. It gives me hope that we can work on this, and that things can get better for DS. Thank you!

Jewel2

01-29-2010, 12:43 PM

it's a 2 year study, just starting up, and it is dealing solely w/ behavior modification, not meds. It's 200 families. I can tell you the things they are having them do if you are interested. It's very rewards based (no punishment, just rewards). No guarantee they will work, the study results won't be out for several years, but my friend is finding them helpful right now -- just had dinner with her last night. Her son is 9, in 4th grade. But I'm pretty sure he doesn't have any anxiety issues, just ADD-i.

Good luck!

I think the teacher will rate him the same and probably much higher than I did for inattentiveness.

kokoro

01-29-2010, 03:31 PM

Kim

01-29-2010, 08:03 PM

Yes, the sharks for 3 years is exactly what I see here. It's fascinating, but at the same time, it's very different from most kids. My son't memory is amazing too. He can quote years, dates, who was in office, nitty gritty details that most adults wouldn't know. I think it's a positive aspect of his OCD tendencies and his anxiety.

I just finally decided that we'd done everything else (including dietary changes) and it was time to try the meds with the belief that I would not settle for a less than great result from any medication and that I would discontinue them if they didn't help him. They did immediately help him and that was obvious,so we spent a good amount of time finding one with his optimal results. All in all, we tried 4 medications. The 4th was the one that helped the most for his ADHD.

I should add that we first addressed the anxiety with play therapy and group therapy for nearly a year starting at age 2.75 (he was incredibly articulate even at that age). At age 3.5, despite the therapy and my work at home with him, he developed panic attacks. So we finally tried an antidepressant for anxiety. We tried 3 before settling on this one--it took almost 2 years to find the final medication as we went very slowly. The ADHD became more clear once the anxiety was controlled and we began the meds search at age 8. We have attempted twice to go off the anxiety meds (he's 11 now) and it's still there.

Watching his crippling anxiety become manageable was astounding and changed my rigid opinion of meds for children. It was most certainly warranted for my child. he has a normal life now due to those meds.