conflicting religious views, church-going, family issues, oh my.

[Hawthorne]

Lily has been going to church with my parents for a few years. I can't remember how much I've posted of this, but some of you may know that we've had increasingly conflicting feelings about it. We want our kids to feel free to believe what they want, but that kind of church (Wesleyan) does not take enough of an open-minded approach for us. So over time we've grown frustrated that Lily is being indoctrinated that the Bible is completely inerrant, because WE don't believe that. But we are not church-goers (even when we considered ourselves Christians we weren't attending church), and it seemed unfair to Lily to tell her she couldn't go do something she enjoys.

After all this crap with my family, Tony and I decided enough is enough. When my dad called this morning, I told him that we've decided not to send our kids to church with them, unless they're interested in converting to the Universalist church (insert laugh). I chose that wording to be humorous, because I know my parents do NOT believe in Universalism.

My dad says he's sorry, and that he enjoys taking the kids to church, and why don't *I* go to the U.U. church if I like it so much. I just said, "I don't attend church." (I REALLY have zero desire to, but if Lily were to say that she misses going, I *would* take her to the UU)
But then my dad says, "So are you still celebrating Christmas?" ...huh? I say to him, "What do you mean? Of course I am. Do you think I've just gone mad?" I can't even figure out why he's saying this, except he must think I'm just pissed at the family and trying to drop out of everything??? I'm seriously confused. Then he says, "Christmas IS about Christ." I laugh and say, "No it's not! It's about Santa Claus silly!" he says, "oooh, ok...." and I'm like, "look we can call it something else if you'd like us to. I don't care what it's CALLED."

Then we got off the phone. I'm seriously rolling my eyes here. It's *obvious* that he'd been wanting to say that to me about Christmas for awhile, because it just rolled off his tongue too quickly and was not really in context of the rest of the conversation.
It's boils down to this- my parents are pissed off that I don't call myself a Christian anymore, and even more pissed that I'm not going to let them influence our children to be Christians. (HEY PEGGYANN, sound familiar!? LOL)

ALL THE MORE REASON to establish these rules, and I'm sorry for only one thing- that I didn't do it sooner.
:mouthfull

[Stacey]

Good on you for setting boundaries that make YOU feel comfortable. I'm thinking about you often.

[kokoro]

From my perspective now I was being totally brainwashed there. I believed everything I was told and believed it all in a literal sense. I had not ability to think critically about what I was being taught.

My parents felt I was being brainwashed and the differences between what I was being taught and what how my parents lived were too big. they decided to pull me out of that school. I was *devastated*. I cried and cried. If it had been left up to me I would have chosen to stay and maybe I would be still practicing that type of Judaism now. I can't say. But I know I am *very* glad my parents yanked me out of that situation! It was straight brainwashing. The transition was hard on me for years. I am *still* glad they did it. Very worth it IMO.

So, I'm throwing out the idea that until a child is a certain age they may not even be the best judge of this. I wasn't, anyway.


Lily has been going to church with my parents for a few years. I can't remember how much I've posted of this, but some of you may know that we've had increasingly conflicting feelings about it. We want our kids to feel free to believe what they want, but that kind of church (Wesleyan) does not take enough of an open-minded approach for us. So over time we've grown frustrated that Lily is being indoctrinated that the Bible is completely inerrant, because WE don't believe that. But we are not church-goers (even when we considered ourselves Christians we weren't attending church), and it seemed unfair to Lily to tell her she couldn't go do something she enjoys.

After all this crap with my family, Tony and I decided enough is enough. When my dad called this morning, I told him that we've decided not to send our kids to church with them, unless they're interested in converting to the Universalist church (insert laugh). I chose that wording to be humorous, because I know my parents do NOT believe in Universalism.

My dad says he's sorry, and that he enjoys taking the kids to church, and why don't *I* go to the U.U. church if I like it so much. I just said, "I don't attend church." (I REALLY have zero desire to, but if Lily were to say that she misses going, I *would* take her to the UU)
But then my dad says, "So are you still celebrating Christmas?" ...huh? I say to him, "What do you mean? Of course I am. Do you think I've just gone mad?" I can't even figure out why he's saying this, except he must think I'm just pissed at the family and trying to drop out of everything??? I'm seriously confused. Then he says, "Christmas IS about Christ." I laugh and say, "No it's not! It's about Santa Claus silly!" he says, "oooh, ok...." and I'm like, "look we can call it something else if you'd like us to. I don't care what it's CALLED."

Then we got off the phone. I'm seriously rolling my eyes here. It's *obvious* that he'd been wanting to say that to me about Christmas for awhile, because it just rolled off his tongue too quickly and was not really in context of the rest of the conversation.
It's boils down to this- my parents are pissed off that I don't call myself a Christian anymore, and even more pissed that I'm not going to let them influence our children to be Christians. (HEY PEGGYANN, sound familiar!? LOL)

ALL THE MORE REASON to establish these rules, and I'm sorry for only one thing- that I didn't do it sooner.
:mouthfull

[Hawthorne]

From my perspective now I was being totally brainwashed there. I believed everything I was told and believed it all in a literal sense. I had not ability to think critically about what I was being taught.

My parents felt I was being brainwashed and the differences between what I was being taught and what how my parents lived were too big. they decided to pull me out of that school. I was *devastated*. I cried and cried. If it had been left up to me I would have chosen to stay and maybe I would be still practicing that type of Judaism now. I can't say. But I know I am *very* glad my parents yanked me out of that situation! It was straight brainwashing. The transition was hard on me for years. I am *still* glad they did it. Very worth it IMO.

So, I'm throwing out the idea that until a child is a certain age they may not even be the best judge of this. I wasn't, anyway.

She's nine and yes, I agree that she isn't the best judge, which is why we're making this choice for her as far as her *influences* go. I was trying to believe that by US allowing her to believe what she wanted, she would come out with some sort of balanced view. Unfortunately, that's just not how it works. If one set of people is leaving it open-ended and another is pushing their agenda or she's being exposed to a certain belief system than she will go for that.
I'm glad to know that you did come out it without long term effects, because the last thing I wanted was for her to grow up and think we prevented her from being Christian.

Oh, I forgot, my dad responded to my comment about Santa by saying, "So you really do believe in fairy tales. Do you believe in the Easter Bunny too?"

I really feel like he's saying to me that I *shouldn't* celebrate Christmas because I don't celebrate it the way he does. So my plan is just to call him and say that- "do you accept me the way I am?" If not, well... I can't continue having people in my life who completely disrespect my feelings. It's so hurtful!
Today as I was thinking about this, I came to the conclusion that all of this *pressure* and dysfunction from my family can NOT influence my children. I want them to know what it's like to grow up in a normal, loving family, and if I need to remove the dysfunctional parts of the equation to do so, that will be a small sacrifice compared to the long term result.

[nahkoe]

Today as I was thinking about this, I came to the conclusion that all of this *pressure* and dysfunction from my family can NOT influence my children. I want them to know what it's like to grow up in a normal, loving family, and if I need to remove the dysfunctional parts of the equation to do so, that will be a small sacrifice compared to the long term result.

Tread cautiously with this. I do not regret my choices, but the consequences have often been far different than I expected. Be gentle with yourself and allow yourself to grieve even if it seems completely irrational. It is what it is.

I am far more healthy than I would be with certain influences in my life, but as I've healed the reality of what I don't have in my life has struck me with sudden sharpness at times. If you ever need to talk..I'm available (usually easiest to catch on facebook).

[kokoro]

I can't tell you what is best to do with your family. I went through very hard times with my parents and we amazingly get along very well now. I hope someday for the same for you. I don't know your situation well enough but it sounds like your dad is acting out of care at least.

I agree with your thinking about the religious stuff. Yes, I want D to decide for himself but that doesn't mean I send him off to be brainwashed by some other group in the meanwhile. I would not have gotten to make a choice if I had stayed at that school because the choice was being made for me by the school.

[ecilA]

oh Rebecca, I so hear you. We haven't had to deal with much pressure over the secular christmas thing, I get the occasional spam type message...I just had a discussion with a friend about her upcoming birth and the pressure to baptise...anyway, I too thought that it was ok to let my kids explore and figure out for themselves. Then I realized that it was subjecting them to indoctrination with a bit of implied approval, why would I let them do this if I questioned the doctrine?

I decided at some point that I'd been very wrong (somewhere in there were the candy bars for Christ--not to be offensive, they were bribing kids with candy to come and it really offended me as a parent) and that my children needed to reach the desire to explore religion on their own which means that there would be no more rides on the "joy bus", no more tacit approval. It became important to me in a different way as my feelings about religion have solidified.

[gfrach]

Oh, Rebecca, I'm so sorry. I think it's a wise decision, esp given their reactions to other pieces of your life. Huge hugs!!!

[Bickery]

Regarding spiritual development, I found this interesting when it came up in a couple of my classes:
http://jmm.aaa.net.au/articles/2219.htm

[Peggyann]

((((Rebecca)))) Hody Mody Shit. I read your first paragraph and thought "Do we have the same parents?"

I love you just the way you are, if you need me, call me! We can commiserate!

~PA~

[saffron]

Today as I was thinking about this, I came to the conclusion that all of this *pressure* and dysfunction from my family can NOT influence my children. I want them to know what it's like to grow up in a normal, loving family, and if I need to remove the dysfunctional parts of the equation to do so, that will be a small sacrifice compared to the long term result.

{{{HUGS}}} I'm sorry this has been such a trying experience for you - all of it. I think you've made the right decision by ending your dd going to church with her grandparents. I was also raised in a very dogmatic religion, which I left when I was pregnant with Logan. I would NOT allow my children to attend their services on a regular basis, because they are taught that what the church teaches is 100% true. Most children *want* to be good, and are going to internalize those messages. That isn't the way to "expose them and let them decide."

If she misses church, I would encourage you to try out your UU. I also am not big on church-going, and didn't regularly attend church (although we tried UU off and on) for many years. But we started regularly attending the UU a year and a half ago, solely so that the kids could attend their religious education program. I'm SO glad that we did. The congregation we attend is lovely and the religious education program is excellent (I've taught both years so I'm familiar with the materials). Both my kids have made friends, and it has provided a great sense of community. My 11yo especially has become very active with choir, handbells, a play, etc. At her age, these "outside the family" activities are becoming more important, and I appreciate having the support of a religious community to provide such activities. Anyway, just something for you to consider, if not for now, then maybe for the future.

Also, I agree with nakhoe that you might want to tread lightly with your dad/parents on this issue. You are setting a lot of boundaries with your family right now. This is completely warranted and healthy. But it is going to be a somewhat jarring experience for them. I'm wondering if it is possible for you to set your boundaries without doing a lot of discussing and probing with them. They may need some time to think about your boundaries and how they are going to change their relationship with you. Sometimes when relationships are going through a big (painful) change, it can be best NOT to hash out all the details at once. I've found it useful to set boundaries and then give everyone some breathing space for a while. Obviously, if issues come up, they can be addressed. But it can be healthy to have a little "strategic ambiguity" for a while too. YMMV though, so take this advice or leave it. :-)

[Hawthorne]

{{{HUGS}}} I'm sorry this has been such a trying experience for you - all of it. I think you've made the right decision by ending your dd going to church with her grandparents. I was also raised in a very dogmatic religion, which I left when I was pregnant with Logan. I would NOT allow my children to attend their services on a regular basis, because they are taught that what the church teaches is 100% true. Most children *want* to be good, and are going to internalize those messages. That isn't the way to "expose them and let them decide."

If she misses church, I would encourage you to try out your UU. I also am not big on church-going, and didn't regularly attend church (although we tried UU off and on) for many years. But we started regularly attending the UU a year and a half ago, solely so that the kids could attend their religious education program. I'm SO glad that we did. The congregation we attend is lovely and the religious education program is excellent (I've taught both years so I'm familiar with the materials). Both my kids have made friends, and it has provided a great sense of community. My 11yo especially has become very active with choir, handbells, a play, etc. At her age, these "outside the family" activities are becoming more important, and I appreciate having the support of a religious community to provide such activities. Anyway, just something for you to consider, if not for now, then maybe for the future.

Also, I agree with nakhoe that you might want to tread lightly with your dad/parents on this issue. You are setting a lot of boundaries with your family right now. This is completely warranted and healthy. But it is going to be a somewhat jarring experience for them. I'm wondering if it is possible for you to set your boundaries without doing a lot of discussing and probing with them. They may need some time to think about your boundaries and how they are going to change their relationship with you. Sometimes when relationships are going through a big (painful) change, it can be best NOT to hash out all the details at once. I've found it useful to set boundaries and then give everyone some breathing space for a while. Obviously, if issues come up, they can be addressed. But it can be healthy to have a little "strategic ambiguity" for a while too. YMMV though, so take this advice or leave it. :-)

I've actually said very little to them about my reasons, so yes, I'm with you there. As a matter of fact, our conversations involving changes in boundaries have totaled probably less than ten minutes altogether. lol It's tempting to send an email to them or call them with prepared thoughts about the meaning/implications behind what they're saying to me, but I haven't because I don't want to piss them off. I sense the tension in my dad, and I'm leaving it to sit.

In the mean time, my kids have spent the night at their house, my parents have stopped by briefly to drop things off, Lily and Lewis went over and made cookies with my mom, and today Lewis is going to go make a craft with her after school. So there have been plenty of normal interactions and I hope that they are realizing that just because I'm setting boundaries on these certain issues, that this doesn't mean I want them OUT of my life. I really don't, but OTOH I want them to know that I will not sacrifice my mental health or my children's future just for the sake of "family".

[Mary]

Religion never seems to be an easy topic. I think it's very personal and don't feel any particular group has a right to claim they have it all RIGHT. I'm Christian but evolution isn't a problem for me, for example. But I live in the heart of the Bible Belt, so I generally keep my person religion to myself.

[Seppie]

This is so interesting to me, because when I was seven or so, my parents let us go to a Lutheran vacation bible school. (We were raised UU, though once in awhile went to midnight mass on Christmas Eve -- my dad grew up Catholic.)

I remember thinking, "how can anyone believe that this is really true?" Even then, with no one telling me how to think, I simply was not capable of taking the bible literally. I wasn't brainwashed by going to church every day, just confused about how grownups believed something that seemed like a fairy tale to me.

On the other hand, at that age I still totally and truly believed in Santa. :dunno:

[Bickery]

I think that it was similar for me. I wonder if it has anything to do with having generally been raised with the "some people believe this" attitude?


This is so interesting to me, because when I was seven or so, my parents let us go to a Lutheran vacation bible school. (We were raised UU, though once in awhile went to midnight mass on Christmas Eve -- my dad grew up Catholic.)

I remember thinking, "how can anyone believe that this is really true?" Even then, with no one telling me how to think, I simply was not capable of taking the bible literally. I wasn't brainwashed by going to church every day, just confused about how grownups believed something that seemed like a fairy tale to me.

On the other hand, at that age I still totally and truly believed in Santa. :dunno:

[kokoro]

the conflict between what I had been told at the Orthodox school and what I was seeing at public school was so huge that it caused me to question everything. I ended up rejecting *everything* I had been taught and becoming an atheist at *age 7* as a result. It was quite painful because I had really loved my religious school and there was *no one* I could talk with about any of these things. Other kids certainly were not thinking about these things. In high school it became fashionable to be an atheist but that was too far away to help me then.


This is so interesting to me, because when I was seven or so, my parents let us go to a Lutheran vacation bible school. (We were raised UU, though once in awhile went to midnight mass on Christmas Eve -- my dad grew up Catholic.)

I remember thinking, "how can anyone believe that this is really true?" Even then, with no one telling me how to think, I simply was not capable of taking the bible literally. I wasn't brainwashed by going to church every day, just confused about how grownups believed something that seemed like a fairy tale to me.

On the other hand, at that age I still totally and truly believed in Santa. :dunno:

[Hawthorne]

My mom just called to tell me that my dad is very upset (aka Pissed off beyond recognition) about what I said on the phone yesterday and that he wants his house key back. Nice Christian attitude, eh?

[gfrach]

:ohno:

I'm sorry, Rebecca!! :grouphug:

[Debra]

{{{{Rebecca}}}} I've dealt with a lot of this from both sides of our family. When my kids were about 6 & 2, a family member said IN FRONT OF MY KIDS that they were so sad that my kids won't be in heaven with them since we don't take them to church. It just about destroyed our relationship. Don't effing tell me my babies are going to hell. F.U. It just baffles me. If you truly believed in heaven and hell, why would you want to worship a god that sends BABIES to hell? WTF?

It's gotten better over the years and everyone has finally backed off. They see we are a loving family with high morals, we just are not religious. I try to refrain from using the A word much (atheist) because they still visibly wince at it, then a few weeks later we get a Bible in the mail or some religious book written by some former atheist turned born again Christian.

I'm really sorry you are dealing with so much family shit right now. :-(

[boomerang]

As an aside, not every Christian believes that the bible is really true, or at least not literally true. I was extremely surprised to find out that Catholic church's official stance is that the bible is allegorical and evolution is plausible as long as you figure that God allowed for it. The classes I'm taking teach that time is non-linear and God is non-corporeal and that the bible is a historical document to guide us rather than absolute literal truth which must be followed to the letter. Of course I have very much gotten the sense over the past year that I just got extremely lucky to find a liberal and intellectual Catholic church that suits me that well, since there seems to be wide variation even among churches of the same denomination.


This is so interesting to me, because when I was seven or so, my parents let us go to a Lutheran vacation bible school. (We were raised UU, though once in awhile went to midnight mass on Christmas Eve -- my dad grew up Catholic.)

I remember thinking, "how can anyone believe that this is really true?" Even then, with no one telling me how to think, I simply was not capable of taking the bible literally. I wasn't brainwashed by going to church every day, just confused about how grownups believed something that seemed like a fairy tale to me.

On the other hand, at that age I still totally and truly believed in Santa. :dunno:

[azul99]

As an aside, not every Christian believes that the bible is really true, or at least not literally true. I was extremely surprised to find out that Catholic church's official stance is that the bible is allegorical and evolution is plausible as long as you figure that God allowed for it. The classes I'm taking teach that time is non-linear and God is non-corporeal and that the bible is a historical document to guide us rather than absolute literal truth which must be followed to the letter. Of course I have very much gotten the sense over the past year that I just got extremely lucky to find a liberal and intellectual Catholic church that suits me that well, since there seems to be wide variation even among churches of the same denomination.

Growing up in the Catholic Church, I learned the Bible was allegorical - that some parts may have historical truth, but most (e.g. Adam and Eve) were allegorical. We were taught that evolution is perfectly compatible with faith.

This is the view of my current denomination (ELCA Lutheran) as well.

[Seppie]

This is much more compatible with my own ideas as well...I think as allegory, the bible is really useful, and never meant to imply that I thought ALL christians take the bible literally.
Maybe that's really what they were saying at vbs...can't guarantee that what I came away with at 7 was really what they were teaching, but my impression was that these wacky grownups really *believed* that the stories in the bible really happened...

[Seppie]

What, is he afraid you're going to let Santa in?

[Hawthorne]

What, is he afraid you're going to let Santa in?

:rofl: Thank you for that! :thumbsup:

[mudcreekmama]

(((Rebecca))) I'm sorry! pull the plug out on what you've been holding in and everything swirls right out huh?

I don't have any advice except keep processing stuff with people you feel safe with. Hold onto the family that supports you, even if it's just your nuclear family right now!

Much love your way!

[serialmom]

One of the greatest things our parents do is honor us as adults, with our own opinions and our own families. I truly hope that one day, your dad will respect you as an adult. For now, I'm glad you have - your - family around you.

[saffron]

This is so interesting to me, because when I was seven or so, my parents let us go to a Lutheran vacation bible school. (We were raised UU, though once in awhile went to midnight mass on Christmas Eve -- my dad grew up Catholic.)

I remember thinking, "how can anyone believe that this is really true?" Even then, with no one telling me how to think, I simply was not capable of taking the bible literally. I wasn't brainwashed by going to church every day, just confused about how grownups believed something that seemed like a fairy tale to me.

I think it is different if you are exposed to the idea of "some people believe this" or "we don't all have to think alike about religion" before being exposed to a "this is the only truth" religion. Maybe this makes children less receptive to indoctrination. But when you are raised 100% from birth to believe X and only X, it is a rare child who will question it, IME.

[Peggyann]

I think it is different if you are exposed to the idea of "some people believe this" or "we don't all have to think alike about religion" before being exposed to a "this is the only truth" religion. Maybe this makes children less receptive to indoctrination. But when you are raised 100% from birth to believe X and only X, it is a rare child who will question it, IME.

and that child, was me, much to my parents chagrin :-P

~PA~

[Hawthorne]

and that child, was me, much to my parents chagrin :-P

~PA~

I remember asking lots of questions when I was feeling brave, up through my teens I was asking questions on the most basic of concepts regarding Christianity. I "believed" it, because I thought it was the right thing to do, and I am, after all, a really good person... but I NEVER understood it. I don't get the concept that someone else can die for MY sins. I'm pretty big on personal responsibility (perhaps why I'm so pissed off at my family right now! lol).

[macaquinha]

... I wasn't brainwashed by going to church every day, just confused about how grownups believed something that seemed like a fairy tale to me.
...


I think that it was similar for me. I wonder if it has anything to do with having generally been raised with the "some people believe this" attitude?

Put me here, too. I spent 5 years in a school run by hardcore Lutherans, and came out of it with nothing more than a knowledge of the Bible that has allowed me to rebuff all attempts to convert me since. :-P I'm actually grateful for my religious education, because I'm quite certain that I'm not missing anything by choosing not to believe.

FWIW, I was also raised under the "some people choose to believe, but we don't" umbrella. My sister spent some time as a Quaker, my brother has been a church musician, and I'm still a confirmed non-believer. What I hope for my kids is that they, too, are comfortable wherever they find themselves on the belief spectrum. :-)

[mudcreekmama]

We believe in progressive revelation and that there are no historical false prophets - that God sends us a new one when we are ready and that the universal message doesn't really change between prophets, but the rules for living in our age do.

(For example the science/religion connection is very important in this age. One of our biggest challenges is to strike a balance between them.)

ANYHOW... in children's classes you focus on the universal virtues that are at the heart of all prophet's teachings. You expose children to ALL of these prophets through their words and deeds that illustrate these virtues. They learn not the trappings of each world religion but the purity of each prophet's words.

I hope that it will equip my children to face other people's faiths with enough knowledge to respect and show interest in all faiths. As they grow older (like Arrow's age), we help them learn to discuss differences in a respectful way that allow them to stand up to intolerance of difference, while still holding the person who is being intolerant in a place of ...I'm searching for the right word....trust and understanding. This becomes a stronger push through middle school.

Atheists, how do they face atheism? Well it hasnt been an issue and as no group of atheists has ever started a war we aren't too concerned that lack of faith in God will cause the same divisions between people :-)...but this is a very real issue with science, and you can always focus on the Virtues without any inference to GOd at all. That's why they are a core to all teachings.



I think it is different if you are exposed to the idea of "some people believe this" or "we don't all have to think alike about religion" before being exposed to a "this is the only truth" religion. Maybe this makes children less receptive to indoctrination. But when you are raised 100% from birth to believe X and only X, it is a rare child who will question it, IME.

[saffron]

My mom just called to tell me that my dad is very upset (aka Pissed off beyond recognition) about what I said on the phone yesterday and that he wants his house key back. Nice Christian attitude, eh?

Of course he is upset. Having someone set a boundary with you is painful. It means your previous behavior was unacceptable.

You aren't responsible for his feelings though. You are only responsible for *your* actions. It is okay for him to be as upset as he wants to be, as long as he continues to act in an appropriate manner towards you and your children. If hearing about his upset is too much for you, you could consider telling your mother (should such a call occur again) that you are sorry he/she is upset about the boundaries you are establishing but that you need to be true to yourself (live with integrity) and thus these boundaries are essential to your well-being. You can affirm that you love them (if you feel like it), but let them know that you cannot listen to the minute details about how your setting boundaries makes them feel. They can process those emotions with someone else.

IMO, your mother's phone call is probably an attempt to get you to quit setting boundaries. That is what she and your father would like. But you certainly don't have to do so. Calmly and firmly let them know this. {{{{HUGS}}}} This is painful all around. But you don't have to let their pain/confusion guide your actions.

[Hawthorne]

Of course he is upset. Having someone set a boundary with you is painful. It means your previous behavior was unacceptable.

You aren't responsible for his feelings though. You are only responsible for *your* actions. It is okay for him to be as upset as he wants to be, as long as he continues to act in an appropriate manner towards you and your children. If hearing about his upset is too much for you, you could consider telling your mother (should such a call occur again) that you are sorry he/she is upset about the boundaries you are establishing but that you need to be true to yourself (live with integrity) and thus these boundaries are essential to your well-being. You can affirm that you love them (if you feel like it), but let them know that you cannot listen to the minute details about how your setting boundaries makes them feel. They can process those emotions with someone else.

IMO, your mother's phone call is probably an attempt to get you to quit setting boundaries. That is what she and your father would like. But you certainly don't have to do so. Calmly and firmly let them know this. {{{{HUGS}}}} This is painful all around. But you don't have to let their pain/confusion guide your actions.

It's in issue, because he will make it an issue. My dad has anger problems. He will hold this against my husband and I for a long time, effecting my relationship with my mom as well.
It's complicated, and not everything is written out here, but I did tell my mother yesterday, when she asked why I am making this choice, that it is *nothing* against them personally. She tried to argue with the answers I gave her about our personal beliefs and want we want for our children, and I reminded her that it is OUR choice to make, regardless of how SHE feels about the details.

My dad isn't "upset", he doesn't do hurt feelings, he only does blown out of proportion feelings. He can't remove himself from the situation enough to even begin to see our viewpoint and is taking this as a direct insult to himself, just as he has when I discuss the situation with my brother. I can't begin to stress this enough- my dad has very deep-seated self esteem problems that surface in rage. I love him, but when there is conflict, I want no part of him and fear him.

[azul99]

It's in issue, because he will make it an issue. My dad has anger problems. He will hold this against my husband and I for a long time, effecting my relationship with my mom as well.
It's complicated, and not everything is written out here, but I did tell my mother yesterday, when she asked why I am making this choice, that it is *nothing* against them personally. She tried to argue with the answers I gave her about our personal beliefs and want we want for our children, and I reminded her that it is OUR choice to make, regardless of how SHE feels about the details.

My dad isn't "upset", he doesn't do hurt feelings, he only does blown out of proportion feelings. He can't remove himself from the situation enough to even begin to see our viewpoint and is taking this as a direct insult to himself, just as he has when I discuss the situation with my brother. I can't begin to stress this enough- my dad has very deep-seated self esteem problems that surface in rage. I love him, but when there is conflict, I want no part of him and fear him.

I think Saffron and the others have written great posts, so really have nothing to add other than my sympathy.

Have you read The Dance of Anger, by Harriet Lerner? It is an excellent book, about navigating these relationships in the context of angry feelings, establishing boundaries while communicating love, etc.

Hang in there.

[anastasia]

We believe in progressive revelation and that there are no historical false prophets - that God sends us a new one when we are ready and that the universal message doesn't really change between prophets, but the rules for living in our age do.

(For example the science/religion connection is very important in this age. One of our biggest challenges is to strike a balance between them.)

ANYHOW... in children's classes you focus on the universal virtues that are at the heart of all prophet's teachings. You expose children to ALL of these prophets through their words and deeds that illustrate these virtues. They learn not the trappings of each world religion but the purity of each prophet's words.

I hope that it will equip my children to face other people's faiths with enough knowledge to respect and show interest in all faiths. As they grow older (like Arrow's age), we help them learn to discuss differences in a respectful way that allow them to stand up to intolerance of difference, while still holding the person who is being intolerant in a place of ...I'm searching for the right word....trust and understanding. This becomes a stronger push through middle school.

Atheists, how do they face atheism? Well it hasnt been an issue and as no group of atheists has ever started a war we aren't too concerned that lack of faith in God will cause the same divisions between people :-)...but this is a very real issue with science, and you can always focus on the Virtues without any inference to GOd at all. That's why they are a core to all teachings.

Maybe you can answer a question for me... a Baha'i married into my extended family recently and while I had heard nothing but good things about the faith, he and his family are actively homophobic and point to their religion as justification in a similar vein to what I hear from vocal homophobic Christians. I can't imagine you being part of a faith that has such teachings so I am wondering what the Baha'i faith actually says about homosexuality, and is it really the big issue that this person and his family make it out to be?

[anastasia]

It's in issue, because he will make it an issue. My dad has anger problems. He will hold this against my husband and I for a long time, effecting my relationship with my mom as well.
It's complicated, and not everything is written out here, but I did tell my mother yesterday, when she asked why I am making this choice, that it is *nothing* against them personally. She tried to argue with the answers I gave her about our personal beliefs and want we want for our children, and I reminded her that it is OUR choice to make, regardless of how SHE feels about the details.

My dad isn't "upset", he doesn't do hurt feelings, he only does blown out of proportion feelings. He can't remove himself from the situation enough to even begin to see our viewpoint and is taking this as a direct insult to himself, just as he has when I discuss the situation with my brother. I can't begin to stress this enough- my dad has very deep-seated self esteem problems that surface in rage. I love him, but when there is conflict, I want no part of him and fear him.

I'm sorry, Rebecca. That really truly sucks. I do think you have thought through your decision and come to a reasonable and loving decision, and it's too bad they can't see it that way. Frankly, that was one of the first things that started turning me off to religion--the way some people get so wrapped up in it that they lose *themselves*, lose the ability to separate their religion from what makes them individuals and sustains their individual relationships. Certainly it's not true of all religious people or even most of them IME, but when it does happen it makes me very sad.

Though it's a very different situation, it reminds me just a bit of my SIL's mother, whose response to their request that she not smoke in their house after they had their first baby was to refuse to visit and claim that they had rejected HER. She couldn't separate the smoking from herself.

[Sensitive Topic]

And that's why I'm posting ST. I had always read about Bahai as a religion of equality and was shocked to find out, after talking to this active family member and researching myself, that the position is that homosexuality is not natural, that sexual relations ought to take place only within heterosexual marriage, and also that, with effort, gays can change to straight. Some LGBT members have been stripped of rights within Bahai. Now I have no doubt there are some branches that do not support this, just as there are liberal Catholic parishes that don't adhere to the anti-gay line. But yes, that is true about Bahai.


Maybe you can answer a question for me... a Baha'i married into my extended family recently and while I had heard nothing but good things about the faith, he and his family are actively homophobic and point to their religion as justification in a similar vein to what I hear from vocal homophobic Christians. I can't imagine you being part of a faith that has such teachings so I am wondering what the Baha'i faith actually says about homosexuality, and is it really the big issue that this person and his family make it out to be?

[mudcreekmama]

First of all there are no "branches" or sects in the Baha'i faith, there are individuals and individual consciences.

Things work this way: There are Bahá’u’lláh words, there are Abdul Baha's words and then there are Shoghi Effendi's words. After Shoghi Effendi died The Universal House of Justice was formed. This is the lineage from which all "laws" are understood. The last person in direct lineage to Baha'u'llah was Shoghi Effendi - who died in 1957. At that time, when Shoghi Effendi was asked about homosexuality he consulted with scientists, doctors and psychologists of that time and based on the research he was presented with decreed that homosexuality was not a biological drive, and could be changed. Neither Bahá’u’lláh or Abdul Baha mentioned homosexuality, but both said we must never put religion ahead or behind science - in points of dispute - science and the revelations it brings trump religious doctrine.

There is also a law that sexual relationships belong within the sanctity of marriage.

There is also a law that you may not marry without all living parents giving their permission.

I know plenty of out gay men and women who are Baha'i (I'd say just due to *my* circle of friends...20% are gay/lesbian/bi and not at all closetted, including myself. None have had any sanctions put on them ( stripped of rights). Being sanctioned doesn't happen because you are gay, or because you are having sex outside wedlock, or because you don't pray, or give to the fund, or forget to fast, or gossip or any of the other laws - that's between you and God - entirely. Sanctioning happens when people break fundamental rules in the faith that cause a breakdown in unity - For example - if someone explains that the Baha'i faith does not allow a faith based marriage unless you have permission from all living parents (regardless of circumstance) on youtube, that is one thing. If they then start a campaign to push for that right, ignoring all the laws that make for peaceful nonviolent communication within the faith (everything from no political campaigning, secret ballots, true democracy, consultation, no backbiting, etc etc etc) then they will likely, privately, by their local assembly, maybe national, be asked o stop. If they continue causing strident divisions without any respect for the process then they would face sanctions - losing their ability to vote and participate administratively within the faith.

On a much more serious level - If someone tries to start up their own sect they are considered a covenant breaker and excommunicated.

At the core of the Baha'i faith is this covenant: As individuals we have the responsibility to observe the laws God has given to us to safeguard our dignity and to enable us to become the noble beings He created us to be--to pray, to meditate, to read the Sacred Writings, to fast, to live chaste lives, to be trustworthy. It is our responsibility to show love towards each other, as imperfect as we may be; and it is our obligation to love and obey the institutions Bahá'u'lláh brought into being. Unless we do these things, we do not open ourselves to the benefits of Bahá'u'lláh's Covenant with us. Oh and what's he giving us? Bahá'u'lláh's part of His Covenant is to bring us teachings that transform both the inner and outer conditions of life on earth, to provide us with an authoritative interpreter to keep us from misunderstanding God's will for us, and to give us guidance to establish institutions that will pursue the goals of the achievement of unity.

I vocally support gay marriage rights. I personally will not marry until gays and lesbians have that same right. I do it as an individual, not as a member of the Baha'i faith, and in my understanding of the faith and my relationship with God and the Faith that's perfectly alright. My covenant is with God, not with the administrative body.

My understanding of the covenant does not allow for homophobia or discrimination based on sexual orientation anymore than it does racism, or classism. I also accept that individuals are imperfect and there are homophobes everywhere.

Shoghi Effendi did not write the sacred texts, he was asked to interpret them as Guardian of the faith and he worked within his era. Like with case law, administrative directives from the Universal House of Justice look for guidance in the history of how the issue has been dealt with going back to Shoghi Effendi's words and Abdul Baha and the sacred texts of Bahá'u'lláh.


And that's why I'm posting ST. I had always read about Bahai as a religion of equality and was shocked to find out, after talking to this active family member and researching myself, that the position is that homosexuality is not natural, that sexual relations ought to take place only within heterosexual marriage, and also that, with effort, gays can change to straight. Some LGBT members have been stripped of rights within Bahai. Now I have no doubt there are some branches that do not support this, just as there are liberal Catholic parishes that don't adhere to the anti-gay line. But yes, that is true about Bahai.

In an effort not to backbite I'm going to leave it at this - Any person or group of people that promoted hatred or violence of gays under a Baha'i banner would face strong sanctions all the way up to the Universal House of Justice. Anyone who suggests otherwise has an agenda.

[mudcreekmama]

Oh! And there is no LAW against homosexuality. There is a law about being chaste and that includes sex and sexual attraction only being appropriate within the sanctity of marriage.

Here's a good synopsis of the issue-

Baha'i's Catch-22 situation involving the conflict of science & religion:

The Baha'i faith appears to be trapped between two of its foundational principles:

In contrast with many other faiths, they have traditionally valued and readily accepted the findings of science. The vast majority of human sexual researchers and the major medical and mental health professional associations have reached a consensus that a homosexual orientation is normal and natural for a minority of adults, and is essentially unchangeable in adulthood.

Baha'is believe in the inerrancy of the writings of their Prophet Baha'u'llah, as interpreted by a succession of church leaders. The last of these, Shoghi Effendi, interpreted the prophet's writings as condemning homosexual behavior. He died in 1957 without selecting a successor. Thus, Baha'u'llah's writings can never be re-interpreted in the future.
The trend in North America is towards an increasing public acceptance of the near consensus of human sexuality researchers. The incompatibility between the Baha'i policies towards science and towards homosexuality may prove to be a major problem to the faith. If current trends continue, oppression of gays, lesbians and bisexuals will become as unacceptable within the culture as sexism, racism, xenophobia and religious intolerance are today. This conflict may -- over time -- seriously inhibit conversions to the faith.

If Shoghi Effendi had selected a successor, then she or he might have reinterpreted the two writings of Baha'u'llah as:

Prohibiting persons with a heterosexual orientation from engaging in same-sex behavior, while allowing persons with a homosexual orientation to be sexually active with members of the same sex, and

Prohibiting adults sexually abusing children of the same sex.
That would leave the way free for their religion to accept the validity of loving, committed same-sex marriages, civil unions, and domestic partnerships.

But since no successor was selected, the conflict may be unsolvable.



Keeping Baha'i statements on LGB matters in perspective:

Religious organizations -- particularly those those whose beliefs are based on a holy text like the Torah, Holy Bible, or Qur'an -- have often found it difficult to change their beliefs and teachings on moral and ethical topics.

To their credit, the Baha'i faith has been an exception. They promoted democracy, equality for women, civil rights, and other causes from the time of their faith's inception in the 19th century. This was far in advance of many other faith groups. Their current opposition to LGB issues is an anomaly. On this one topic, they have lagged behind secular trends, rather than leading them.

This section discusses statements by Baha'i individuals and groups over the interval 1973 to the present time. It is important to realize that a major evolution in understanding of sexual orientation has occurred over this time interval. This has been reflected in the laws of some states and countries.

Recall that it was only:

In the 1950s that Evelyn Hooker conducted the first meaningful studies that showed that gay males were not mentally ill;

In 1969 when a police-induced riot at Stonewall Inn in Greenwich Village, NYC triggered the gay liberation movement;

In 1973 that the American Psychiatric Association dropped homosexuality from its list of mental illnesses.

In 2003 that same-sex behavior was decriminalized in the U.S.

In 2004 when loving, committed same-sex couples in Massachusetts were allowed to marry.
This is an enormous change over the last six decades. However, on LGB topics, the Baha'i faith's teachings have remained static. Future developments should be interesting to watch.

editted to add - this is from religioustolerance.org

[kokoro]

I can see that what you explained is much more complicated that the ST posted but it still would not be something that I could tolerate for my religion in any way.


Oh! And there is no LAW against homosexuality. There is a law about being chaste and that includes sex and sexual attraction only being appropriate within the sanctity of marriage.

Here's a good synopsis of the issue-

Baha'i's Catch-22 situation involving the conflict of science & religion:

The Baha'i faith appears to be trapped between two of its foundational principles:

In contrast with many other faiths, they have traditionally valued and readily accepted the findings of science. The vast majority of human sexual researchers and the major medical and mental health professional associations have reached a consensus that a homosexual orientation is normal and natural for a minority of adults, and is essentially unchangeable in adulthood.

Baha'is believe in the inerrancy of the writings of their Prophet Baha'u'llah, as interpreted by a succession of church leaders. The last of these, Shoghi Effendi, interpreted the prophet's writings as condemning homosexual behavior. He died in 1957 without selecting a successor. Thus, Baha'u'llah's writings can never be re-interpreted in the future.
The trend in North America is towards an increasing public acceptance of the near consensus of human sexuality researchers. The incompatibility between the Baha'i policies towards science and towards homosexuality may prove to be a major problem to the faith. If current trends continue, oppression of gays, lesbians and bisexuals will become as unacceptable within the culture as sexism, racism, xenophobia and religious intolerance are today. This conflict may -- over time -- seriously inhibit conversions to the faith.

If Shoghi Effendi had selected a successor, then she or he might have reinterpreted the two writings of Baha'u'llah as:

Prohibiting persons with a heterosexual orientation from engaging in same-sex behavior, while allowing persons with a homosexual orientation to be sexually active with members of the same sex, and

Prohibiting adults sexually abusing children of the same sex.
That would leave the way free for their religion to accept the validity of loving, committed same-sex marriages, civil unions, and domestic partnerships.

But since no successor was selected, the conflict may be unsolvable.



Keeping Baha'i statements on LGB matters in perspective:

Religious organizations -- particularly those those whose beliefs are based on a holy text like the Torah, Holy Bible, or Qur'an -- have often found it difficult to change their beliefs and teachings on moral and ethical topics.

To their credit, the Baha'i faith has been an exception. They promoted democracy, equality for women, civil rights, and other causes from the time of their faith's inception in the 19th century. This was far in advance of many other faith groups. Their current opposition to LGB issues is an anomaly. On this one topic, they have lagged behind secular trends, rather than leading them.

This section discusses statements by Baha'i individuals and groups over the interval 1973 to the present time. It is important to realize that a major evolution in understanding of sexual orientation has occurred over this time interval. This has been reflected in the laws of some states and countries.

Recall that it was only:

In the 1950s that Evelyn Hooker conducted the first meaningful studies that showed that gay males were not mentally ill;

In 1969 when a police-induced riot at Stonewall Inn in Greenwich Village, NYC triggered the gay liberation movement;

In 1973 that the American Psychiatric Association dropped homosexuality from its list of mental illnesses.

In 2003 that same-sex behavior was decriminalized in the U.S.

In 2004 when loving, committed same-sex couples in Massachusetts were allowed to marry.
This is an enormous change over the last six decades. However, on LGB topics, the Baha'i faith's teachings have remained static. Future developments should be interesting to watch.

editted to add - this is from religioustolerance.org

[mudcreekmama]

"If Shoghi Effendi had selected a successor, then she or he might have reinterpreted the two writings of Baha'u'llah as:

Prohibiting persons with a heterosexual orientation from engaging in same-sex behavior, while allowing persons with a homosexual orientation to be sexually active with members of the same sex, and

Prohibiting adults sexually abusing children of the same sex.
That would leave the way free for their religion to accept the validity of loving, committed same-sex marriages, civil unions, and domestic partnerships.

But since no successor was selected, the conflict may be unsolvable."

I thought it might be a good idea if I addressed what Baha'u'llah was speaking about, and that Shoghi Effendi was asked to clarify - he was asked about the Arabic/Muslim custom of men taking sex partners outside of their marriages - it isn't taboo if it is another man. It also isn't taboo for grown men to have sex with young boys - like 5 year olds. Right now our military is facing this "moral dilemna" in Afghanistan - Canadian soldiers are not supposed to protect little boys or stop the rape of boys, because it is "cultural interference"

THIS is the practice Baha'u'llah condemned - NOT consentual homosexuality. He never made mention of it, or lesbianism.

[libbylibbylibby]

I am sorry. On the other hand, I am glad that you did not have to deal directly with your father over the house key. It sounds like that would have been BAD.
I am keeping you and your family in my thoughts. I am sorry that this has all come to head for you all at the same time.